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RedRock Rat
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Jan 21, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2006
· Points: 145
So I had the experience recently of having to take a lead test in a new gym. I've been climbing for close to 15 years and have worked at several gyms. My thought here is that a lead test is to prove to the management at the gym that a. the leader knows how to properly clip (no back clipping, z-clipping, etc.) and b. that the lead belayer is competent (standing close to the wall, watching the climber, being attentive with the slack, brake hand, etc.). At this gym we were required to climb their "lead test route" which was in my opinion in the high ten category. It popped into my head that many of the people I climb with are very safe sport and traditional leaders on easy ground but stick them on an overhanging 5.10 and we are in for some air time (which would cause you to fail this test). What are the thoughts out there on a mandatory 5.10+ route to be certified to lead in a gym?
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AGParker
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Jan 21, 2011
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San Angelo, TX
· Joined Oct 2009
· Points: 20
The way I see it, if you are in a gym it is to work out. So a competent leader doesn't really need to lead gym routes. Just top rope the routes to work on strength, endurance, or whatever. Another thought is that a gym is a good place to teach lead climbing, so for a climber just learning to lead, I don't think the gym should automatically say that a leader must climb a .10 to be competent. That is just silly. Like you said, a lot of safe, competent leaders can't climb .10s. Why would a gym expect a new leader to be able to do so?
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Adam Paashaus
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Jan 21, 2011
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Greensboro, NC
· Joined May 2007
· Points: 791
AGParker wrote: Like you said, a lot of safe, competent leaders can't climb .10s. Why would a gym expect a new leader to be able to do so? If the majority of the lead routes in that specific gym are 10+ and harder.
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Jim Gloeckler
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Jan 21, 2011
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Denver, Colo.
· Joined Jul 2004
· Points: 25
A bit stiff as you said. Easy 5.9 is the norm at most gyms out here in Colorado. But leading at the gym isn't the most important thing since the clips are so close anyway. Staying in shape in bad weather periods is what most folks are there for. What percentage of outdoor climbs that most folks do are overhanging anyway? Just about the only area that has mostly overhanging climbs out here is in Rifle. That is about 6-8% of the total climbing in Colorado. Just a guess.
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RedRock Rat
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Jan 21, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2006
· Points: 145
To respond to a couple of comments/questions. No the majority of the "lead" routes are not 5.10 I would say half below and half at tenish or above (kinda the standard variety of a gym). As to the overhanging concept, I agree a sizable majority of climbers that I've encountered aren't in it to climb overhanging 5.hard . I'm a happy camper on 1000' slabby 5.6, that said I agree that gyms are there to keep in shape during the shite weather we all love so much and that leading isn't necessary to stay in shape but still if I pay my 10-12-14-16-20$ I would like to be able to lead whether or not I'm a 5.10 climber as long as I'm safe. I personally think it was a bit stiff but hey I'm just one person. Gyms are fickle creatures and one must do their unique dance, handshake, test, etc. to be accepted.
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Justin Brunson
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Jan 21, 2011
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Tacoma WA
· Joined Jun 2010
· Points: 2,266
at our gym, we like leaders to be at least solid 5.9 topropers. Our reasoning is that a consistent 5.9 climber is going to know their limits. We want to avoid people who would unexpectedly blow it while clipping the second bolt. It's not a perfect system, but it helps more than it hurts.
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Sam Stephens
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Jan 21, 2011
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PORTLAND, OR
· Joined Jan 2010
· Points: 1,090
I've had different lead tests at different gyms, and the one I liked the most was one where they sent you up a vertical wall with a party route that roughly followed the bolt line. They made you take falls, demonstrate clipping errors, but weren't worried about your climbing abilities. The gym is there for you to work on your climbing abilities, not to judge your climbing abilities, IMHO. I've been to gyms that wanted things so specifically that it was a nuisance to even take the test. I've also been to gyms that hardly even tested me. IE, tie in, climb, don't screw up.
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Mark Cushman
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Jan 21, 2011
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Cumming, GA
· Joined Sep 2006
· Points: 975
If the lead route isn't overhanging, there is a greater potential for injury while taking a lead fall. This is especially true if it has huge holds bolted to it - imagine catching one of those with your foot on the way down. Most overhanging routes provide a safer fall and typically clock in above 5.9 due to the angle.
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Woodchuck ATC
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Jan 21, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 3,305
AGParker wrote:The way I see it, if you are in a gym it is to work out. So a competent leader doesn't really need to lead gym routes. Just top rope the routes to work on strength, endurance, or whatever. Another thought is that a gym is a good place to teach lead climbing, so for a climber just learning to lead, I don't think the gym should automatically say that a leader must climb a .10 to be competent. That is just silly. Like you said, a lot of safe, competent leaders can't climb .10s. Why would a gym expect a new leader to be able to do so? Must be the same gym I experienced this at, or same group of gyms as it was exactly the same here in Chicago area. Senseless to demand you be a 5.10 leader in order to be cool enough for their gym. Something is sure wrong in the thinking of today's gym owners. They sure find ways to alienate people from having a good experience. Since when did hard 5.10 become the standard for you to show an interest in climbing? I know when. Since the sport era began. They(young sporties) often have no clue of trad climbing and as we all know, the majority of sport routes do not dip under the 5.9 rating very often, so there is no learning process. You must immediately be a 5.10 climber or you are excluded. Just something else that sticks in my gut about the whole situation.
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Chris Plesko
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Jan 21, 2011
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Westminster, CO
· Joined Oct 2007
· Points: 485
I'm not sure a stiff 10 is a good lead test route but most i've seen are ~5.9 and overhanging. I'd rather take my "demo" fall on an overhanging wall though I do lead hard vertical routes in the gym I guess. There just aren't a lot of 5.8 or easier routes in most gyms I've been to. Most (all?) people that climb a lot are going to manage 5.9 in a gym pretty quickly. The hands are big, the feet are big, the routes are short and the holds are taped. While it may be slightly annoying, passing the lead test on a 5.9 can't really be that difficult? Personally all I care about is that the person can clip and belay safely but gyms have other things to worry about as well i suppose.
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Phillip Tearse
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Jan 21, 2011
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Denver, CO
· Joined May 2008
· Points: 80
alienate people? really? I think you are blowing it a bit out of proportion. It is most likely the easiest route on overhanging terrain. As mark pointed out, its a safety issue, and as Justin pointed out above him, you will know your limits alot better at 5.9/5.10 rather than jumping into lead climbing before you should be in a gym. I'd also wager that upward of 90% of newbies dont even have interest in leading before they can toprope in the mid 10 range. If they do really want to lead, well then it gives them a nice little goal for that particular gym too.
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Adam Paashaus
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Jan 21, 2011
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Greensboro, NC
· Joined May 2007
· Points: 791
Woodchuck ATC wrote: Senseless to demand you be a 5.10 leader in order to be cool enough for their gym. Something is sure wrong in the thinking of today's gym owners. They sure find ways to alienate people from having a good experience. You must immediately be a 5.10 climber or you are excluded. I disagree, dont forget about the whole insurance thing. I know If I owned a gym I would not want anyone leading until they had been toproping a while and could climb in the 10 range comfortably. I remember when I started clipping bolts the endurance was not there and I remember almost blowing some clips. I know some gyms are geared to the leader and when a new climber comes in they imediatly think they need to learn fast so they can lead. oooooh! and skinny ropes and grigris are what I NEED. Thats how accidents happen. That is what the test is for.
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Woodchuck ATC
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Jan 21, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 3,305
But they ARE learning fast and heading right into the gym/sport leads. They toprope a few 9-10's easily at the gym and think they are ready to move on to leading of all kinds. But I still think that there should be 5.6-5.9 lead routes available somewhere. The gym is not meant only for the ultra hardman sport climber. It is also a training gym for the casual trad lead climber who spends years enjoying classic 5.5- to 5.9 routes around the country. Granted, that's Trad, as we know there are no 'classic' 5.6 sport routes or at least none of interest to most sporties. I want to see the gym used as a place for all to enjoy at whatever level. Not competitive all the time; the one-upsmanship that goes on at comps is not needed for a normal gym climbing day. Gym owners seem to view it as a training ground, or like a fitness center where you are always striving to increase muscle mass, run faster, lift or do more exercises, etc. except in a climbing mode. That seems to be why they insist on hard leads or no leads at all in their gyms. Agree there is always the degree of safety and insurance too, thus the autobelays found in so many places today or required grigri and floor anchor use.
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Mike Anderson
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Jan 21, 2011
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Colorado Springs, CO
· Joined Nov 2004
· Points: 3,265
I honestly don't understand why people feel the need to lead climb in a gym. It's a GYM, for exercise, it's not the Eiger Nordwand. The only reason to even have lead routes in a gym is if a route is so steep, it can't safely be toproped, and if that's the case, sorry, it is probably 5.10, or much harder. Our gym is populated mostly by bland mid-westerners who rarely if ever climb outside on real rock and wouldn't know what to do if they saw it, but they all want to be seen lead climbing. As a result, the gym staff are forced to contrive 5.8 overhanging lead routes with draws every 4 feet so these guys/gals can have their moving toprope/lead route. I went about my business in this gym for 2 years before I even got "lead certified" (official member of the cool kids club). But, of course, someone who actually climbs outside doesn't need the ego validation of contrived danger indoor "lead" climbing.
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saxfiend
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Jan 21, 2011
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Decatur, GA
· Joined Nov 2006
· Points: 4,221
Woodchuck ATC wrote:The gym is not meant only for the ultra hardman sport climber. It is also a training gym for the casual trad lead climber who spends years enjoying classic 5.5- to 5.9 routes around the country. I agree. Fortunately, the new gym here in Atlanta has a great selection of lead routes for people who haven't reached the 5.9 level yet. The worst situation I've ever encountered was a climbing gym in Florida that I went to while visiting my parents. Never mind a lead test -- they wouldn't let you lead until you took a lead class with them! I said, you've got to be kidding me, I lead multi-pitch trad outdoors and you're going to make me take a class?? Screw that! JL
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Woodchuck ATC
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Jan 21, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 3,305
Saxfiend, that proves it's all about the money. Gotta take OUR version of a lead class to lead in OUR gym. I was anti-gym for a long time, but found their usefulness later. Now they seem to have gone back to being elitist in their shallow world. Doubt if some of the gym belayers or 'leaders' have ever climbed a real rock or any multi pitch.
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Mike Pharris
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Jan 21, 2011
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Longmont, CO
· Joined May 2007
· Points: 125
saxfiend wrote: ... The worst situation I've ever encountered was a climbing gym in Florida that I went to while visiting my parents. Never mind a lead test -- they wouldn't let you lead until you took a lead class with them! I said, you've got to be kidding me, I lead multi-pitch trad outdoors and you're going to make me take a class?? Screw that! JL a perfect example of insurance company lawyers screwing it up for everyone else. (my guess anyhow)
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G McG
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Jan 21, 2011
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Victoria, BC
· Joined Dec 2010
· Points: 60
Woodchuck ATC wrote:Saxfiend, that proves it's all about the money. Gotta take OUR version of a lead class to lead in OUR gym. I was anti-gym for a long time, but found their usefulness later. Now they seem to have gone back to being elitist in their shallow world. Doubt if some of the gym belayers or 'leaders' have ever climbed a real rock or any multi pitch. Also, anywhere that makes you pay to take a lead test is all about the money... Good example is a gym in Vancouver.... living in Victoria, while I was over there we wanted to hit up the gym. First, there is a first time users fee, then the day pass, then I have to pay for the top rope test, THEN if I wanted to lead I'd have to pay for the lead test....in total, it was going to be around $70 after tax. Screw you guys, I'm going home!
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S.Stelli
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Jan 21, 2011
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Colorado Springs, CO
· Joined Dec 2009
· Points: 150
Mike Anderson wrote:I honestly don't understand why people feel the need to lead climb in a gym. It's a GYM, for exercise, it's not the Eiger Nordwand. The only reason to even have lead routes in a gym is if a route is so steep, it can't safely be toproped, and if that's the case, sorry, it is probably 5.10, or much harder. Mike - I disagree in that lead climbing in a gym has other things to offer besides a physical workout. There is a huge difference between top roping and the sharp end; and it doesn't matter if you are in a gym or on real rock. When on lead, there is a lot more that you have to consider (even at the gym, gasp) and I for one love knowing that stress and that angst of "am I going to make it to the next clip or is this going to be a fun ride?" The gym also offers a nice, structured way of measuring progress, weather it be in difficulty, or endurance, or mental prowess on the sharp end. So much more than excersize. -edit- I forgot to mention that I started leading on real rock, and still prefer real rock to any fake. I like the gym sometimes but nothing compares to the real deal, and this is what I base my opinion on.
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Gregger Man
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Jan 21, 2011
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Broomfield, CO
· Joined Aug 2004
· Points: 1,834
I wanted to climb at Allez Up in Montreal a couple of years ago. I called/emailed them in advance to see if I could get to skip the lead test. Despite the fact that I directed a lead climbing school for several years, had several gym cards with lead certifications, and had an active AMGA certification, they wouldn't relent. I would have to pay for admission and pay nearly that much again to take the test. In the end my climbing partner couldn't make it so I didn't go. I had wanted a workout, but I doubt it would have been worth the price or the hassle. I guess everybody's got a business to run.
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S.Stelli
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Jan 21, 2011
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Colorado Springs, CO
· Joined Dec 2009
· Points: 150
RedRockRat wrote: What are the thoughts out there on a mandatory 5.10+ route to be certified to lead in a gym? My opinion is that is doesn't have to be a hard route to test on to show your proficiency at climbing/leading. I think its silly they made you climb something so hard for the lead test. One of my local gyms seems to have the formula pretty right for thier lead test. The route they use is on a vertical wall, with the top most part being a bit overhung. They make you demonstrate all your clipping expertise on the easy vertical part (not much chance of decking out at this point) and when you get up to the more overhung section is where you demonstrate proper falling proceedures (so you don't bash yourself against the wall). The entire route probably goes at 5.9- at best.
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