Climbing hard without the training program

Wow slim, that's a really interesting data point. I think if you went to the Red or Maple, or another "gym crag", all of the SCC gym technique training might pay off (check out Undertow if you haven't already). Unfortunately most of the real world has much smaller holds than the gym.

Maybe this should be a separate topic, but it's related: at what point in progress does weight--as in 10 or 15 pounds one way or the other--become more important?

This isn't a question about fat or fitness, but pure climbing performance. Assume a person is already lean and fit for general athletic purposes. A 10 pound swing probably doesn't much affect progression up to 5.10. But 11? 12? Beyond?

I'm lean and strong, but have always been dense and heavy for my size (5'11, 190). Is there a probable range where I'd need to intentionally shed muscle and get skinnier to progress?

Slim you must be stubborn to stick 4 years with something that is causing more injury and less results!

JLP wrote: There's a pretty good concensus out there that sport specific training isn't useful until somewhere in the 12's (+/- a grade or somesuch), unless you have a significant weakness. At some point, you will very likely stop improving and start dealing with more and more injuries by just climbing - probably well below 5.13.

I'm not following. Are you talking about supplemental work outside of climbing (e.g. hangboard, system, campus...)? You're suggesting to stay off of these tools until you're climbing .12s or 13s? That's fine with me! I can barely hang on the biggest campus rung for 10 seconds!

Here's the challenge: like every schmo I go to the gym after work a couple times a week. If my partner is available, we'll rope up and do a dozen routes or so. If he's not, I'll boulder for an hour, maybe knock out some pullups (because I love them) and go home.

There's not any real schedule or method, and I don't know if that's a problem or not. On saturday or sunday I head to the cliff. Most of my focus is onsighting two or three pitch routes in the hard 9 to easy 10 range. This is my measure of success or failure every season.

What would you be sure to do in those two weekly gym sessions to yield some more success on the rock on saturday?

Monomaniac wrote:Wow slim, that's a really interesting data point. I think if you went to the Red or Maple, or another "gym crag", all of the SCC gym technique training might pay off (check out Undertow if you haven't already). Unfortunately most of the real world has much smaller holds than the gym.

i'll have to check out undertow. my theory about the gym climbing not crossing over is that most of the routesetting seems to be geared towards big openhanded holds, which generally means big footholds. unfortunately, probably 95% of the climbing in the front range is crimping and bad feet. also, the gym might get me addicted to "planar", or 2 dimensional hold layout versus outside, which often has more awkward bulges, etc.

this might sound kind of contradictory, but i do think that climbing in the gym has maybe made me a better climber, although i haven't been able to climb as hard. there are certain things that i definitely have improved at. however, for me, it just hasn't been able to make up for the difference that the hangboard provides in terms of strength. the hangboard is defintely the way to go if you want to get stronger.

chris, i pretty much define stubborness. i make cool hand luke look wishy washy :)

tks wrote: What would you be sure to do in those two weekly gym sessions to yield some more success on the rock on saturday?

If I were you, I would spend some time every night you're at the gym bouldering things that are hard enough that it takes you a few tries to do them, but not more than 10 (if it takes more than that, you're not getting anywhere). In addition, I would climb some routes that are pumpy enough that you are forced to clip when you are pumped, and learn how to deal with that mentally.

slim wrote: my theory about the gym climbing not crossing over is that most of the routesetting seems to be geared towards big openhanded holds, which generally means big footholds. unfortunately, probably 95% of the climbing in the front range is crimping and bad feet. also, the gym might get me addicted to "planar", or 2 dimensional hold layout versus outside, which often has more awkward bulges, etc. this might sound kind of contradictory, but i do think that climbing in the gym has maybe made me a better climber, although i haven't been able to climb as hard. there are certain things that i definitely have improved at. however, for me, it just hasn't been able to make up for the difference that the hangboard provides in terms of strength. the hangboard is defintely the way to go if you want to get stronger.

I think since the late 90s or so all the hold manufacturers have been afraid to make tweaky holds, and gyms refuse to place them because they're afraid they'll get sued. Whatever the reason, I've definitely noticed that plastic climbing holds made these days suck for training.

I happen to know for a fact that the guys who wrote SCC, though they are very smart guys who mean well, they have a somewhat narrow-minded view of sport climbing IMO. They think of sport climbing as steep, big holds, power-endurance-as-the-limiting-factor, climbing. Their training concepts do not in any way address the types of climbing you get at places like Shelf Road, Penitente, Smith Rock, etc. If you climb steep pumpy routes, I think they present an approach that would probably work well. On the other hand, I know for a fact that the Rockprodigy approach works for both styles, and it is tailorable to whatever you like to climb.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:Maybe this should be a separate topic, but it's related: at what point in progress does weight--as in 10 or 15 pounds one way or the other--become more important?

Shawn, I don't think it's a grade cutoff it's the style of climbing that matters. On slabbier climbing, your weight is on your feet, so as long as your legs and toes are able to handle an extra 10-15 lbs (which they should), then you won't see much benefit from weight loss. On steeper climbing, more weight is on your fingers, and you better believe that 10-15 lbs makes a difference on your fingers. Anyone who's ever messed with a hangboard and weights can verify that.

An individual's technique can go a long way toward mitigating the consequences of a few extra pounds, which is why you'll occasionally see a chubby guy like me get up a steep pitch. Check out Ron Kauk climbing Magic Line (14b) in Masters of Stone 4 with love handles rolling over his harness, or John Dunne on anything.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:Maybe this should be a separate topic, but it's related: at what point in progress does weight--as in 10 or 15 pounds one way or the other--become more important? This isn't a question about fat or fitness, but pure climbing performance. Assume a person is already lean and fit for general athletic purposes. A 10 pound swing probably doesn't much affect progression up to 5.10. But 11? 12? Beyond? I'm lean and strong, but have always been dense and heavy for my size (5'11, 190). Is there a probable range where I'd need to intentionally shed muscle and get skinnier to progress?

IMHO, weight only comes into play on a personal level, and my own experience is maybe 1-2 letter grades at most; assuming we're talking an existing level of fitness and not a "biggest loser" scenario.
Climbing harder stuff is mostly about contact strength, body tensioning, and subtle balance adjustments that simply can only come from frequent sessions working on hard -for the individual- problems.
Since you are built like me, I'm a 1/2" taller and 15 pounds heavier; I'll bet that your biggest constraint (aside from career and family keeping you from dirtbagging at Rifle) is actually ape index, which is my biggest handicap.

As far as weight goes, you really need to be careful. I know that for me, I'm typically at about 150 lbs, if I stop riding my bike I can pretty easily drop to 145 which might make a difference of a grade or two for on-sighting steep climbs but is detrimental for steep hard bouldering, I feel like I loose some core strength at the lower weight. If I'm on a long road trip I might drop to 140 where I can hold on forever but if I need to do a hard/physical move I just can't.

I can say that using the Rock Prodigy method seems to work quite well, not that I've used it, but from having trained in other sports (swimming and cross country mostly) I can see how it would be beneficial. Also I know someone who follows it religiously and has gone from 5.13a to 5.14a in 5? years.

Me, I don't really follow a plan. No cyclical training, not hangboards or campusing, except to try new tricks. I did plenty of that with a coach telling me what to do when I was younger, now I can't get in a pool without thinking about intervals, time splits and technique drills, I don't want climbing to become that for me.

I get to climb 1 or 2 days a week in the gym and 1 or 2 days a week outside, never more than 3 days a week and quite often less. My gym time is restricted to 1-2 hours at a time so I will either boulder or find someone to do sets of routes with. For bouldering I generally warm up 5-10 problems @ an easy grade. Then do a 4x4 set with problems in a 3 grade range (the hardest being a grade that I would expect to flash basically 90% of the time) never ending with the easiest, 5-10 minutes of rest between sets but no rest between problems within a set (some people think you get to rest, you should have it planned out and move immediately to the next problem). The first set is easy, the second usually goes pretty well, the third is a battle and the fourth a lot of times I fall off a couple of the problems. For routes I do sets as well 2-3 at a time (our gym is 25 feet tall so most routes are about 20 moves) a couple of sets to warm up then a set or 2 at a grade that is difficult (trying to do harder routes later in the set and using routes again that are a grade that I would expect to on-sight) and an easy set to finish. All that said there are times I don't climb in the gym for a month or more and only climb 1 or 2 times a week at the most, if that.

Outside I try to climb things that are challenging but lean towards things that I can do quickly. I would like to climb harder and have a few long held goals, from when I was 18 that may end up requiring me to train at some point to meet them, though every time I go on a long climbing trip I inch closer so I'm still at the point where climbing a bunch gives me noticeable gains.

Mike Anderson wrote: If I were you, I would spend some time every night you're at the gym bouldering things that are hard enough that it takes you a few tries to do them, but not more than 10 (if it takes more than that, you're not getting anywhere). In addition, I would climb some routes that are pumpy enough that you are forced to clip when you are pumped, and learn how to deal with that mentally.

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to make sure to add the bouldering piece to every trip to the gym, and the clipping-while-pumped on the nights my partner shows up.

Is there anything else I need to do? You agree that board or system training is way in the future, and a waste of time and skin at this level?

5.12 is attainable for just about any climber... What it will take to get there will vary greatly. I don't generally get on a route more than three times. If I haven't sent by then I'll move on. This is because I travel a lot and like to climb as many routes as I can. If I ever have a home crag I might have a "project."

I climbed a few 5.12 sport climbs this year and began onsighting 11 on gear. I have never really trained and even get pretty lazy at the crags. I don't consider myself a strong climber or gifted in any way... I just climb a lot and don't really take long breaks like many climbers.

Most of my friends climb harder than me. My regular partner onsights 5.12 daily and our friends climb harder than that. One guy I climbed with this year sent a 14 on gear. None of them spend much time inside and I'm pretty sure we all think Eric Horst books are a joke. Not to say that they can't help but you don't need em. We all just climb a lot. Part time work, living on the cheap, no frills, make sacrifices to get in a lot of pitches EVERY week.

For me, The Self Coached Climber by Dan Hague and The Rock Warrior's Way by Arno Iglner were both impactful while Horst's mumbo jumbo was just plain boring.

To add a bit more...

What I learned from the books I like was to climb with a purpose. If you are going to climb, go hard. Do routes that are out of your comfort zone, get variety, and try to onsight everything you get on. Even if it's way over your head and it's gonna be your first of many goes... Make the first one count. See how many moves you can onsight and set a goal to do one or two long sequences. Hanging around is a waste of time.

Also try to learn from every route. Focus hard, even when warming up. Set goals and don't be afraid to consider yourself a good climber. I climb my best when I'm really confident and feeling a but cocky.

Mike Anderson wrote: I think since the late 90s or so all the hold manufacturers have been afraid to make tweaky holds, and gyms refuse to place them because they're afraid they'll get sued. Whatever the reason, I've definitely noticed that plastic climbing holds made these days suck for training.

the sad irony of this occurs when you go outside and try to climb at your "gym" grade and immediately trash your fingers.

the SCC book has a lot of useful and interesting info, but the people i know who have used the SCC model all agree that it doesn't carry over very well to most types of climbing. my yearly SCC cycle has been like this:

train all winter in the gym
springtime go outside and climb a number grade less than i did the previous fall
work all summer and get back to the grade from last fall
go back into the gym and train all winter
springtime go outside and climb a number grade less than i did the previous fall
work all summer and get back to the grade from last fall
go back into the gym and train all winter
etc, etc etc.

ryan, i agree that climbing outside pretty much exclusively would be pretty ideal, but unfortunately i'm your typical 9 to 5 working schlep. hopefully i will hit the lotto soon and get on the good training wagon!

Finding routes that fit you style of climbing is a good start. You have to figure out what is your favorite areas, get in tune with that rock and that style and you can start pushing your personal limits. Routes that you can do on TR and that you can work up to lead. It takes a long time to get your footwork and fingers ready for hard climbing abuse.
There is no special formula, just climb a lot to get in sink with the vertical life.You don't need to train ereally but strong abs and pull ups will help.
Getting used to the intensity of hard climbing also. Hard bouldering will keep you ready for small moves on hard terrain. Here is a motto for you: "Best of the best, screw the rest". That means doing the best routes on a cliff even if the are too hard for you. The best routes, the 4 and 5 star routes will give you the most bang for your buck. You are getting the best experience, even if it is over your head.This will open your eyes to harder climbs, knowing other people can crank that hard, you can too.

Ben Cassedy wrote:Also, I'd add another category of climber. I can't put any percentage on this, but I've come across and admire the people who fall into this category. I'm talking about the guy who has been everywhere and can climb 5.12 on any type of rock. Sport, trad, Utah, Tennessee. Whatever. Has a ton of experience and has met all kinds of cool people on the way. Generally confident, safe, experienced, and climbs ultra-smoothly. Has spent 10-20 years building this repertoire, and may never climb 5.13, but doesn't care either.

That's kind of been my goal and I've actually done that in those places. However, I had to stop you at the 'doesn't care either' part. I care a lot about it.

This year was one of my best. I redpointed .12 on limestone, two completely different types of quartzite, and granite. (didn't get to sandstone this year) Climbed in AF a bunch and had some cool FA's on granite. But every time I tried something much harder than .12b or c I hit the wall.

A lot of people on this thread have mentioned the need to push yourself mentally. I think that's a huge factor but you need to be realistic about your current situation. When I haven't climbed slabs in a while, my mind gets wobbly. However, I get just as wobbly when I haven't climbed something pumpy and need to make a hard clip.

The Anderson's often make the point that most of the world has climbing that is on smaller holds and more powerful. I like what you said about routes and holds at the gym. I try to set in a style that mimics outside climbing with mixed results. Some people love it and some hate it. Either way, when you're at the gym, climbing those steep, high flow routes and then get on something set like outside its a little frustrating. The rythm isn't the same. The aspirations to set like those high-flow routes we do outside is hard to duplicate. Not very many can pull it off.

amen tenesmus! for me, climbing well is about being able to go pretty much anywhere and climb relatively well, on all types and styles. it has taken me many, many years to sort of be able to do this.

it's funny that you mention the slab thing. last summer i had an injury such that climbing slabs was the only thing i could do for a while. pretty soon i was like, sweet this slab climbing is going to help me MTFU and climb above my gear. i'm going to be a bold bad ass! but, when i got gack to strenuous crack climbing, my weight wasn't all on my feet and i had a hard time M'ing TFU and climbing above gear. :(

one thing that i agree with horst over the SCC is that horst recommends climbing all over, whereas SCC seems to promote ruthlessly wiring your home crag. in the long run, i think horst's philosophy will make you a better climber.

tks wrote: You agree that board or system training is way in the future, and a waste of time and skin at this level?

For what you told me about yourself, yes.

Ryan Williams wrote: Even if it's way over your head and it's gonna be your first of many goes... Make the first one count. See how many moves you can onsight and set a goal to do one or two long sequences. Hanging around is a waste of time.

It's not really clear what you're saying hear, but it sounds like you're saying you don't ever try hard moves over-and-over again, instead you only do moves you can onsight, or do in a few tries. If that is the case, you are headed for a serious plateau.

Ryan Williams wrote:5.12 is attainable for just about any climber... What it will take to get there will vary greatly.

Definitely agree with this.
However, another aspect I have noticed is the barrier between a typical climber and those who are physiologically gifted for really hard climbing. I have seen many people get as good as they can get, and the maximum highpoint seems to consistently be .13A. Anyone else notice this?