Legs

I've got beefy legs, like, really beefy legs. I played middle linebacker in highschool, and I've got a linebacker's legs. They're like damn tree trunks. I'm 5'9" with really low body fat, but I still tip the scales at 180lbs because my legs are so freaking huge.

I know that a lot of climbers can be body nazis about their legs, trying to keep themsmall and light. But really, I just don't understand this. My legs are what let me slog my pack uphill, and carry most of the gear when my climbing partner's ankle is janked up.

And it's not just slogging that makes them big, I actively workout my legs with traditional powerlifts (a la Gym Jones)because I believe that leg strength is the key to my overall fitness.

But still, the weight down there does cause me problems, especially on overhanging boulder problems when the leg muscles are often unable to support my weight and instead become like dead weight I have to support.

There's really nothing I can do about this if I wanted to, big legs are in my genes, but I still think it's a good discussion to have, so, what do you guys think, skinny legs or thick legs? Which makes for a better climber?

Define climbing.

Also, I should clarify that I don't workout my legs to build mass, but instead to build efficiency. I ALWAYS superset a set of low-rep, HEAVY-weight power lifts with a set of high-rep, HIGH-intensity plyometrics. I find that this maximizes efficiency and minimizes hypertrophy, but still, hypertrophy happens to some degree with any increase in strength.

Examples:

5x5 Heavy Back Squat
Superset
5x25 24" box jumps.

5x5 Heavy Overhead Squats
Superset
5x15 Tuck jumps

5x5 Heavy DB Lunge
Superset
5x20 Split jumps

I've found that the heavy lifts activate the slow-twitch fibers, and then immediately moving into the plyometrics forces the muscles to immediately switch to recruiting fast-twitch fibers. It's a one-two punch that builds strength and power endurance really well.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:Define climbing.

Good question, you can't, there's too many types that require different types of strength.

I've found that my genetic attributes are best suited to traditional mountaineering and long trad routes in the 5.10 range. Higher grades of trad begin to require a lot of sport-climbing skills with a lot of overhangs that negate the benefits of leg strength.

Sounds like a good answer. :) You could probably make a similar point about upper body strength and bulk for that matter. A few pounds of extra muscle might be an asset for general demands of long trad, but not a good fit for steep, thin, top end moves with minimal flesh-on-rock contact surface.

Never met him, but my impression is Peter Croft has some beefy thighs, as do John Long and Steve Petro.

There's no doubt that skinny, wiry legs are better for hard free climbing, but beefy legs are way better for big walls and mountaineering, anything that requires humpin massive loads. Of course,
there are beefy guys, like the ones Shawn points out, that are excellent free climbers because they are ridiculously strong in the upper body and have excellent technique, but it seems like they are in the minority. K2 sounds like your game. Of course, the capacity to suffer is a different trait altogether that has nothing to do with body size.

When a mountain climb extends into extreme cardio territory (at about twelve hours?) every ounce of muscle that is not contributing to motion is a serious burden.

Top-level mountaineers almost always have skinny-to-very-lean physiques. Examples: Conrad Anker, Steve House, Reinhold Messner, the late Alex Lowe, Mark Twight. An additional bit of ancedotal non-evidence is that all of the mountaineering guides I have met are very lean and have lighter musclatures.

Extra power is nice to have but less weight seems to be more important in mountaineering.

Yeah, but aren't strong legs contributing contributing to motion? Yeah, I agree, you don't want linebacker size legs, but you sure don't want sport climber's legs. Steve House has some serious ham hocks. Lean yes, but thick and strong.

Keen Butterworth wrote:Steve House has some serious ham hocks. Lean yes, but thick and strong.

I can't read that without cracking up. I hope Steve enjoys the evaluation. :-)

I met Steve in an ice climbing clinic at Ouray a couple of years ago. Admittedly, I did not focus on his ham hocks but my impression was that his physique was much like an endurance runner's, with some upper body muscle added on. BTW, Steve is a truly nice guy.

I had an ice climbing clinic with Conrad Anker last year. He could pass as a marathoner too.

Both of these guys are very strong, but mountaineering is a compromise between occasion strength demands and huge extended-cardio efforts. There is a trade-off at some point where the strength provided by extra leg mass is offset by the additional weight of the muscle. My opinion, from personal observation (no science) is that optimal trade-off point for mountaineering occurs closer to marathoner than linebacker.

Lighter body mass always beats out strength. You`re not always using every muscle to get you up the route. The muscles, regardless of bulk, and excess body weight are just dead weight.

Yeah, for sure Dave, a marathoner physique is probably best for long, light and fast ascents. I was just trying to come up with suggestions for what Wille's linebacker legs might be best suited for. Not to hijack the thread or change the subject, but how was that clinic with Conrad? Worth the money?

I have pretty big legs, always have. With mid single digit body fat I don't really worry about it. I'm not going to give up biking so I will just be happy that they help me hump a pack in the alpine and that calf burn when slabbing and ice climbing takes a lot longer to hit for me than my partners. If my leg muscles mean I'll never climb super hard sport routes, I'm totally okay with that.

the question about legs is a pretty good one. most of the training (climbing) books tell you not to waste your time working on your legs, as they will never be what shuts you down on a move. i'm not sure i agree with this, as i really struggle with those monster high step and provide all the upward juice on one leg with no hands sorts of moves.

also, for hard free climbing it depends on the climbing. hard slab climbing won't penalize you as badly as the overhanging ultra fingery stuff.

You guys have some awesome points. Keen, I'm definitely down for K2, that's definitely more my style, but I am striving to be as well rounded as a climber as I can be, Alex Lowe and Conrad Anker are real inspirations to me in that regard. I'd like to climb 5.11 one day, but my ambitions on rock aren't much higher than that, there are far too many other mountaineering skills that I want to work on.

As to the upper body thing, I'm pretty okay there generally, I can rip out 3-4 sets of 10-12 pull ups on a good day.

I think I should clarify one thing though: a linebacker's legs aren't like a lineman's legs. My legs are big, but they're also really lean too, I've not got wasted weight down there. If you've ever watched any of the gym jones videos on youtube, Mark Twight has some really huge legs, I mean,most of his workouts are leg-intensive. The same thing with Mountain Athlete in Jackson Hole.

Also, getting a little off topic again, I'm incredibly jealous of you Dave Swink, ice climbing with Conrad Anker? Man, that's wild. That guy is such an inspiration to me. I guess some people could see it as a negative, but the fact that he married Mrs. Lowe after Alex's death, and is taking care of his family? That's pretty much the most honorable story that I've ever heard.

I'm so glad you brought up this subject. I am about same built as you and I wrestled back in school. I just started to climb and stuck at 5'10s and I was wondering if my extra thick legs were weighing me down too. I guess if I just keep on climbing my body will eventually adjust itself, either legs get leaner or arms get stronger...
Wish you great climbing for many years bro.

Who needs legs once these are available:

Better than any approach shoe

I win powerball, I am so getting one of those

Will,

Yes, Conrad is a real force of nature on the ice. Very impressive guy.

I highly recommend the Ouray Ice Festival as a good way to pick up an important mountaineering skill (ice climbing), take clinics with world class climbers (had a clinic with Jack Tackle too), and have lots of fun drinking beer with other climbers.

Oh yeah, cool competitions too.

Regardiing the OP:
I was a relatively accomplished outside linebacker/defensive end in high school with a year as a walk-on at U.N.C., and I've been around climbing for well over 20 years since then. I also wrestled and wasn't bad, just had a 4-time state champ at my weight in my school. I currently weigh around 205 at 6', and get tons of interruptions in my climbing patterns up to several weeks at a time. Yet, I can usually work out an easy .11

Why I mention all that is that I am well down the road you are starting on. Here's some general observations:

• All you need to do to climb 5.11 is climb as much as you can, with .11 & .12 climbers following their stuff. It won't take all that long.
• Yes, big 'ol legs can be a hindrance on overhanging power routes, but so what. You can break the kids who float that stuff in half with one hand. Crag prowess impresses no one in real life. not that breaking kids in half does either, just making a point...
• There are 2 factors you may be unaware of though that are holding you back: One, all you're life your training has focused on pushing, rather than pulling. Changing you engram-mic strength patterns will take time. Hence the climb a lot statement. 2: you are used to someone screaming in your face as part of your execution. Think you can slam on a Oklahoma drill as intensely without coach yelling his brains out? Somehow you need to transfer that motivator to your inner voice.

Edit to add: its Devils Head week, hence the profile pic

Mike Lane wrote:Regardiing the OP: I was a relatively accomplished outside linebacker/defensive end in high school with a year as a walk-on at U.N.C., and I've been around climbing for well over 20 years since then. I also wrestled and wasn't bad, just had a 4-time state champ at my weight in my school. I currently weigh around 205 at 6', and get tons of interruptions in my climbing patterns up to several weeks at a time. Yet, I can usually work out an easy .11 Why I mention all that is that I am well down the road you are starting on. Here's some general observations: * All you need to do to climb 5.11 is climb as much as you can, with .11 & .12 climbers following their stuff. It won't take all that long. * Yes, big 'ol legs can be a hindrance on overhanging power routes, but so what. You can break the kids who float that stuff in half with one hand. Crag prowess impresses no one in real life. not that breaking kids in half does either, just making a point... * There are 2 factors you may be unaware of though that are holding you back: One, all you're life your training has focused on pushing, rather than pulling. Changing you engram-mic strength patterns will take time. Hence the climb a lot statement. 2: you are used to someone screaming in your face as part of your execution. Think you can slam on a Oklahoma drill as intensely without coach yelling his brains out? Somehow you need to transfer that motivator to your inner voice. Edit to add: its Devils Head week, hence the profile pic

That's maybe the most encouraging thing anyone's ever said to me regarding climbing, I really appreciate it.

And yeah man, Oklahoma's kicked ass.

slim wrote: i really struggle with those monster high step and provide all the upward juice on one leg with no hands sorts of moves.

Thats more to do with flexibility than strength. The more flexible you are the more force you can properly direct onto the rock when taking that high step