Munter Hitch

Just wondering how many people use a Munter with any consistency. My old-style reverso died last summer, and since then I've been using a Munter quite a bit (still undecided on what I want). I especially like it for belaying people from above. I don't like it for sport/single pitches where lowering is happening a lot, since it does kink up some when it's running loaded.

Just wondering if anyone else uses a Munter with any regularity, or if it's just mostly a thing for if you drop your device. I'd love to hear any tips/tricks/uses that you've come up with if you do.

Add any love or criticisms that you have for the Munter to this tread!

Two problems with the Munter.

1) It twists your rope pretty badly.

2) You lock up instead of down and lots of people don't do this instinctively unless they use the Munter all the time.

It is good to know if you every drop your belay device.

I don't know anyone who uses it other than for the 'emergency' of dropping your device. I think it works better than anything else for its' simplicity.

It's good to know how to use the Munter/Mule for rescue purposes. Luckily I've never needed to use it.

you really don't need to lock up with a munter, it will work as well with the brake down

The munter shines with using smaller diameters, it's static braking strength remains fairly constant, whereas if you use the same tube-type device and switch to a smaller diameter strand, you lose some. The munter does only hold so much, but then the super-munter can give you an advantage to controlling a higher load.

you don't lose any strength based on how you position your braking strand.

Brian wrote:Two problems with the Munter. 1) It twists your rope pretty badly. 2) You lock up instead of down and lots of people don't do this instinctively unless they use the Munter all the time. It is good to know if you every drop your belay device.

I have found that this is true for lowering/rappelling, but untrue for lead belaying or belaying up a follower.

One thing that does help is keeping the strands parallel. The more parallel you keep them, the less twisting you get. I've lowered people on it before, and if you are hold the brake strand off to the side, you'll definately get a lot more kinks than you would holding the stands parallel.

Regarding your second point, yeah, it is a bit less intuitive compared to how most people break on with a friction device. However, with so much inherent friction, breaking in any position, parallel or not, should be strong.

Also, I can't remember where I read it, but I heard that a Munter is the only device approved by the UIAA to hold a factor 2 fall... or something like that. It sure gives a lot of friction.

:D

spencerparkin wrote:If I was doing a boot-axe belay or a sitting belay, I wouldn't use a standard belay device. That would be too awkward for my stance. I'd just rig a Munter and the belaying would go much faster.

Huh?

If you were doing either a boot/axe belay (or "sitting belay"), then you wouldn't be using a munter hitch too.

I only use a munter when a belay device isn't available...(and have caught fairly long falls on one).

spencerparkin wrote: I think there's more than one way to rig such belays. In any case, imagining your self as using the Munter to, for example, belay a 2nd up the pitch, notice that your hands can remain in front of you the whole time.

Not really. For instance, a boot/axe belay is a belay using your boot and an ice axe. Where in the f' would you use a munter hitch?

Using most any belay device, my hands are in front of me the whole time too. Whether belaying a second up, a TR, and/or a lead climber.

Mark Nelson wrote:you don't lose any strength based on how you position your braking strand.

Incorrect. The closed Munter has a braking force of about 2.5 kN and the open Munter has a braking force around 1.4 kN.

Twisting of the rope with a Munter (or figure-8 device BTW) is mostly caused by user error. Holding the brake hand off to the side is the problem. Keep the brake hand parallel to the working rope and there is minimal twisting.

Brian is correct regarding boot axe and sitting belays. Braking force of either is around 0.8 kN.

spencerparkin wrote:I imagined myself redirecting my belay off a carabiner attached by a runner to the axe underwhich my foot was placed.

Right (a method I prefer over the boot/axe, since I usually have a sling on my axe and I find it easier and more solid). Also doesn't use a munter hitch.

spencerparkin wrote:The point I'm trying to make about the Munter is that in some orientations of your body with respect to the belay anchor, the Munter can be more convenient to operate than a standard belay device.

I don't find a munter that inconvenient to operate, but, I much prefer a belay device in any orientation over a munter. I can't imgaine a situation where a munter hitch would be more convenient.

Canyoneers use a munter/mule a fair bit to rig contingency anchors, but, anyone who's learned that technique seems to quickly discard it the second they see a belay device (like a figure eight, etc) used in its place. Not a bad thing to know, especially for some self rescue type scenarios.

Munter is also a good thing to know how to rappel and belay with. But, I'd much rather rappel on a carabiner break. Munter on the leg loop is a nice way to add friction on a rappel, too.

Hey Clyde, where's my audio recording from the hotel room? You know the one (ha ha).

Cheers!

I use the Munter Hitch every time I climb. It works great for belaying from the anchor and lowering people. You can do either of these with absolutely no kinking if you keep the belay strand parallel to the load strand as many people of already mentioned.

While lowering from the anchor is a breeze with a Munter Hitch, it is hard on the rope sheath. So when time allows, you can use lower directly from the anchor using another device such as an ATC without fraying your sheath as much.

Brian in SLC wrote: Hey Clyde, where's my audio recording from the hotel room? You know the one (ha ha). Cheers!

Give me your email again. I'll Yousendit over.

Cheers

Hey BrianSLC,

Since you have a picture of ice climbing, have you found it useful for iceclimbing at all? I have a climbing friend that uses it on thinner, icy ropes and says it's useful for ice stuff. Just wondering if you could comment on that (I'm already guessing your answer, but would appreciate your insight).

springs wrote:Since you have a picture of ice climbing, have you found it useful for iceclimbing at all?

Nah, not really. On wet/frozen ropes, I'd much prefer a belay device. Easier to clear snow/ice, much easier to control (and "see"), better braking, smoother, etc. Plus, can you imagine the cluster of trying to belay/rappel on a set of frozen/wet twins and/or doubles using a munter hitch? Yikes.

I caught a long fall (50 to 60 feet) on a single 8.1 double rope using a munter hitch. My partner forgot his belay device, so, lent him mine as he wasn't comfy using a munter. When he popped off, I manged to haul in two arm loads of rope while he fell past me. Stopped him no problem.

A partner who used nothing but a munter caught me in '85 in a 50 footer on an aid climb. He was half asleep, and, I pulled him about 6 feet in the air, but, no problem. He lowered me back to the deck smoothly.

So, I'm a believer that a munter can work. I just much prefer a belay device (ATC pro, new Petzl reverso, etc).

Not opposed to a hip belay ever now an again either...ha ha. Caught a 50 footer in Boulder Canyon in '84 with one...(guy did break some ribs and his ankle...but, that wasn't the belayers fault).

Anyhoo...

Seems like there's a self rescue trick called a "Munter pop". Its pretty cool. I can't fully recall and/or describe it. Anyone?

"And to address the original poster, Springs question: now that you're proficient at the munter, get yourself a dang belay plate. I am personally a fan of the Kong Gigi. Light, simple, and the most versatile belay device on the market. It does everything those goofy looking Reverso and BD Guides do but better (easier to release in top-belay mode, less effort required to pull through two ropes when guiding, which means your back doesn't get destroyed after a few pitches, and much more!) "

Hehe, yeah, I had a gigi, wore that out, then went to the old style reverso and wore that out too. Now I'm left with an tube-style device that I carry mostly for rapping. My only beef with the gigi is that it doesn't belay a leader that well... as far as I know, anyway. And I don't want a gigi + tube hanging on my harness... hehe.

The B-52 seems compact and well-made. Not as beefy/confidence inspiring as a BD guide, but definely the most sleek autoblocker out there that can also belay a leader with easy. Hmmm, I'll have to keep thinking about what to buy next... and in the meantime use my Munter, heh.

Clyde wrote: Incorrect. The closed Munter has a braking force of about 2.5 kN and the open Munter has a braking force around 1.4 kN.

2.5kN is about right; but, we've gotten about 600 ft lbs regardless of where the brake strand is going; even if the strand size is also reduced.

So maybe you've some other criteria in your testing that's giving you a reduction. I thought we did try to emulate it and move the braking strand to different positions, but haven't seen a noticeable reduction.

I wouldn't go far as an incorrect result; in static loading, the reduction just didn't show.

The super-munter gave us about 1000 ft lbs.

One thing that was very noticeable was how much the braking strength drops on a typical tube when reducing the strand size. In this case we dropped from 600 to about 350 ft lbs when going into the low to mid-9 mm in strand diameter.

Mark Nelson wrote: 2.5kN is about right; but, we've gotten about 600 ft lbs regardless of where the brake strand is going; even if the strand size is also reduced. So maybe you've some other criteria in your testing that's giving you a reduction. I thought we did try to emulate it and move the braking strand to different positions, but haven't seen a noticeable reduction.

Something isn't right with your testing. With an open Munter, there is only one turn around the carabiner. With a closed Munter, there are two turns; both make a turn around the working rope. The friction of a turn over a biner is around 0.6 even before you add in the tightening of angles. I have data to back this up but it's buried in a file cabinet somewhere.

Micah Lewkowitz wrote:the munter-pop trick is just to make sure that if your going to escape the belay you should flip the knot from belay to lower position (pop it to lock it, get it?).

Not what I was thinking of.

From page 78 of Mountaineers book "Climbing Self Rescue" by Andy and Molly:

"To use the Munter pop you must have the first Munter loaded from both directions - in other words you must have a load hanging from the Munter and the brake strand..."

Its a method for removing a loaded Munter from a carabiner. The example they give is lowering someone on two ropes tied together.

Neat trick.

i like and use the munter hitch whenever the rope is wet and for sure if it is smaller than 10-fat mm. Especially if I can go two strands. I use it often enough. learn it, use it.

and sure, it kinda twists your rope, but nothing more than bad rope management or a bad coil will do anyway. just kinda part of climbing.

The munter pop is the simplest, least gear-intensive way to rappel past a knot. You install your usual rap device on the rope below the knot clip the device to your harness (this folds the top rope in half at the start of the rappel), and tie it off with a load-releasable knot(munter mule is good for this). On the rope above the knot, install a munter on a sling extending the munter biner from the harness. The extension lets your harness point get below the knot when you arrive there, at which point you begin to weight the tied-off rap device below the knot. Pop the still-weighted munter off the rope above the knot, release the tied-off rap device below the knot, and continue rapping.

Of course, this only works for two ropes tied together, i.e. for passing just one knot.

Micah Lewkowitz wrote:...(Oh and one more point, it is natural reaction to tense up and pull down for a beginner belayer; therefore, going to the brake position with a belay plate, but opening up a munter) As for Brian of SLC's question: the munter-pop trick is just to make sure that if your going to escape the belay you should flip the knot from belay to lower position (pop it to lock it, get it?). Check out the following description for a more in-depth description (pictures included from a guide training course I taught two years ago in AK)

No small coincidence that method was developed many years ago by Craig here in Golden. He was actually one that turned me onto looking at how effective the munter was. He basically laughed when I discussed the brake side position as a belay hitch; which inspired some static load testing, he was right; it didn't matter from what I saw. That guy was certainly one of a kind with his rigging vision.

Further, that 8 you're putting in isn't necessary which is the point of staying load releasable at baseline; you've closed the system with the mm to overhand, but if it makes you feel better to 8 it again, great. You could also just clip a locker in the overhand, but it's not going anywhere, I've broken the mainline in testing the munter-mule-overhand (which would make the 8 a nice anchor ornament).