bolts vs rivets, hangers

Its time to go to fastenall.

wondering if anyone had some advice.

im going to be getting a bunch of 3/8" expansion bolts for anchors and a bunch of rivets for some new routes.

now ive heard that the bolts and rivets from home depot or the like are not the same quality as something i might get from fastenall.
something about testing and metal quality.

also i need to get hangers for said bolts and rivets. i was considering using the bunny ear rivet hangers that could be removed and light (backcountry) and use simple bolt hangers with a quick link and a rap ring. im not looking to put bolted lines up. im just looking to use bolts for rap/belay anchors, and the rivets for progress when all other options have been eliminated.

this brings another question about where and what type of quick link to use. ive rapped and bailed off a smaller diameter one from the hardware store. but im worried about longevity.

so i guess i dont have just one question. but any thoughts on the subjects. im dirt poor like most of you, so the cheapest and safest options would be ideal.

IM LOOKING AT RIVETS FOR AID NOT FREE CLIMBING. WOULD YOU STILL NOT BE A FAN OF THEM.

IVE CLIMBED SOME AID ROUTES AND THE RIVETS WERE PRETTY BOMBER. 2-3 RIVETS THEN ONE WITH A HANGER, AND REPEAT.

Get your expansion bolts from a Hilti outlet store. Say "cash sale", and just use some significant local contractor's name.
Hilti bolts are far and away the best. They cinch up notably faster/better.

John,
Why are you shouting? You asked for some advice and some was given to you.

In general, I would also advise against using rivets. However, there are rare times when I think they are appropriate. Since you didn't explain the situation in which you plan to use them, I'm guessing most people would advise against them.

Perhaps you can tell us how they are going to be used? Where? What kind of rock? How long of route? etc...

I am also a fan of buying better equipment than you get at the local hardware store. (There may be exceptions to this.) When I place bolts, I generally use ones that were made for climbing. If you are unsure about the safety margins with a particular bolt/rivet, I would advise you to post that specific hardware info here and ask those with more knowledge. Greg Barnes or Clint Cummins would be good people to ask. They could also give you some good information about the quicklink question you asked.

I love the butterfly rivet hangers for rivets, hanger-less bolts etc. They are slower and wear out faster but they feel more secure when you're on one and they are lighter.

Cheers and good luck,
Brad

sorry didn't mean to shout. im drafting and have the caps on.
just brainstorming to kill time.

im specificaly thinking of backcountry stuff here in cali. mostly granite. a few walls look like they will go clean but i wanted to have a good backup in case i need to sew up some blank section(rivets)

i do agree that the "climbing bolts are better"

how about homemade hangers.

mostly im cheap and im going to be the sherpa humping all this stuff out there.

John Greer Jr. wrote: mostly im cheap and im going to be the sherpa humping all this stuff out there.

There's your problem. If your going to do it, do it right. Get good hardwear. Skimping on climbing is something that has NEVER made sense to me.

The Home Depot near me sells a 50 pack of 3/8" Hilti Kwikbolts for $35.

Think about those that may someday follow your FA. If this is a secret crag that only you and your partner will be climbing, well no, you should still use quality hardware!

I deal with this sort of hardware all the time in the construction industry. Hilti is not better, just more expensive (they have to pay for all their reps out in the world telling everyone their better). I often write substitution request to use Powers and other brands and it's always excepted by the engineers. I would recommend the 5 piece expansion bolts though.

i had considered that. it will be pretty removed from other areas nearby. so i would think that the chances of another ascent are small. ive been on a few rivet ladders in the big ditch. i think the newer(replaced) rivets are pretty solid looking, with the large heads.

the 5 peice is what i wanted for rap anchors.

i think if there were more chance of a second ascent then the rivets would not be a good idea.

BackCountry wrote: I deal with this sort of hardware all the time in the construction industry. Hilti is not better, just more expensive (they have to pay for all their reps out in the world telling everyone their better). I often write substitution request to use Powers and other brands and it's always excepted by the engineers. I would recommend the 5 piece expansion bolts though.

I take serious exception to this statwement. You sound very much like a project engineer (pm assistant), probably with some construction mgt. degree. I've worked with 100's of guys like you before. I have spent 25 years in commercial/industrial mechanical contracting as a foreman/superintendent. I've installed chillers the size of a city bus, cooling towers as big as a house, 50 hp pumps, miles of steel piping up to 24" in diameter. We use expansion bolts of some form or another by the dozens daily. I probably have set personally over 25,000 units, some as big as 1-1/4" x 8".
In this realm, yes virtually every major bolt manufacturer has surpassed the ANSI spec.'s for design loads. So you can usually get Powers approved in lieu of Hilti, and save a few points on your consumable budget.
But since I doesn't sound like you've actually set enough wedge bolts to tell, a Hilti will always cinch up way faster and more secure than a Red Head or Powers; thus leaving much less of the stud exposed. Most construction materials are interchangeable without notice, but Hilti bolts are so noticeably superior to everything else that even the most brain-dead apprentice notices it right away.
With my routes, I use a combination of Powers' 5-pc. and Hilti wedges. The thing I don't like about the 5-pc's though is that you are 100% reliant on the head of that cap bolt; and if it starts to shear from too much torque you won't see it.
Maybe you should get those tassled loafers out of the trailer more often son.

Will Anglin wrote:Would you chose Hilti over the Fixe wedge bolts? Or are they essentially the same?

Will- I use Fixe hangers exclusively, but since I can usually make use of whats leftover from my projects I have had no need to buy their bolts. So I can't offer an opinion on those.
I also need to clarify that this economy has turned me into a van-driving boiler service guy from whatever ego-driven jerk I was as described above (so I don't have the same access to surplus bolts).
As for the 1/4" buttonheads, we call them nail-drives or hit-pins, they're plenty strong for a static load of an aid climb but I would hate to fall on one.

Mike Lane wrote:As for the 1/4" buttonheads, we call them nail-drives or hit-pins, they're plenty strong for a static load of an aid climb but I would hate to fall on one.

Yet they were the standard bolt for how long? How many falls held? How many falls still held by 30-year-old ones that people haven't replaced yet?

Some people still use 1/4" buttonheads for lead pro (but these days most replace them right away).

It's good to get the "long" 1/4" (1.5 inches instead of 1.25) if you are using them as rivets, and use a washer.

Just in case you happen to establish a new classic, even by accident, it would be nice for future climbers to be able to replace your bolts - another reason to use 5-piece bolts instead of any sort of stud/wedge bolts, be they Fixe or Hilti or Powers or prepare-to-die-since-you-bought-them-at-home-depot-or-lowes-low-quality-junk...

But pay attention to the installation torque on 5-pieces, as Mike alluded to - you can snap them even with a short wrench if you are strong.

If you are only looking at a few bolts (sounds like you are), it's worth it to get some better-than-cheapest-possible - after all, the hangers let alone the gas, your gear, etc will add up to so much more.

And a piece of dirtbag advice - the partners you rope into your projects are often surprisingly willing to help out on the bolt costs (always came as a shock to me...).

Will Anglin wrote:Would you chose Hilti over the Fixe wedge bolts? Or are they essentially the same?

I've used both and like Hiltis better. I've gotten more spinners with Fixe.

I also disagree about the Hiltis being the same as, just more expensive than other brands (well ok, they're more expensive, but I don't think they're the same). I've never had a spinner with the Hiltis, but have had spinners with every other kind of wedge bolt I've tried. I've placed hundreds of the suckers and I think they're great. IMO, if you're set on placing wedge bolts, they're the way to go and worth the expense. They're easier to deal with than the 5-piece (which tend to fall apart in a bolt bag, and they're harder to place one-handed), but are harder to replace.

TP in SLC wrote: Hey John. My advise: do what ever the hell you want. It's YOUR $, Its YOUR effort. Make some homemade hangers F-it. Seriously when did climbers become so hardware safety obsessed? With advent of the Internet?(that is a rhetorical question) How many of you clipped a homemade hanger with a cheap bolt on it, whipped and died? That's what I thought. I find it BS that people call it "your responsibility" to use "bomber hardware". The only time I can really see that come into play is if you are bolting an already established area that sees heavy traffic, then you should probably do everyone a favor and use "the good stuff". But for a backcountry or back-of-the-way route...screw it, use what ever the hell you want. (Commence flame fest)

Just make sure you post back with the location of these new bolts. I don't want to accidentally stumble on your half-cocked, ill-conceived, low-rent, work.