favorite multi-pitch belay device?

so i've been climbing single pitch for about 5-6 years and living in a place with not much multi-pitch and no one to do it with. Now I live in CO and have both but i'd like some advice on something better than my old ATC. I've been looking at reverso's and ATC guide's, but what's your favorite multi-pitch belay device and why? any kind I should stay away from?
thanks for the tips
Ben

I'm a big fan of the ATC Guide. Using it in guide mode is a great way to bring up your second. And if you're climbing as a party of three with double ropes, you can use the guide mode to bring up both seconds at the same time.

I haven't used the new Reverso, but I believe it has pretty much the same capabilities as the ATC Guide. The old Reverso was vastly inferior, as far as I'm concerned.

As for something to stay away from, I'd give the Grigri a thumbs-down for multi-pitch, if for no other reason than the fact that you can't rap with it and so would need to carry a second device.

JL

ATC Guide..I had the new reverso, but I always seemed to have trouble feeding thicker ropes through. I know others will disagree, but that's my .02. ATC is a little heavier, but it's pretty smooth feeding.

I agree with both - new reverso is nice but sometimes a little *too* high friction. Still workable, though. Top-belaying off the anchor is sooooo much nicer.

I like the reverso, I guess I have one of the old ones, but I still like it. I use either that or just my BD ATC.

saxfiend wrote:As for something to stay away from, I'd give the Grigri a thumbs-down for multi-pitch, if for no other reason than the fact that you can't rap with it and so would need to carry a second device. JL

You can rap with a gri gri. The little packet of info that comes with it shows how.

ATC Guide, though I'd like to try out a Reverso 3.

Get a device with autoblock mode for multipitch. There are many benefits.

Atc guide or reverso 3. I've owned and used both quite a bit. The reverso takes more effort to belay in auto block mode on thicker, stiffer less supple ropes. The guide takes a little more effort to control speed on rappel (at least for me @ 200lbs), but this is easily remedied buy adding a second biner on rappels.

Either pick by you favorite color or buy "american".

PS: You can rappel on a gri gri and cinch, but don't do it if you don't know how to.

I also highly reccomend the ATC guide. I also love my gri gri and often take it on multipitch, but why spend $70 on a gri gri when you could spend $30 on an ATC guide.

Here are some of the benefits of having an autblocking device for multipitch.

-can belay directly off the anchor (device facing down)(I would highly recommend redirecting your belay if not using an autoblock)
-can belay safely away from the device
-can go hands free quickly
-the ability to rig a 3:1 autolocking pulley if need be
-If you get hit on the head and get knocked out theoretically the second is still on belay
-can more safely belay two seconds at the same time on a doubled rope

Lately I've been taking nothing but a Trango Cinch(petzl grigri works too) and leaving the well-loved ATC guide at home.

I generally simul rap, it's faster. The Cinch easily allows me to stop mid-rappel to fiddle with the rope.

I haven't been using double or twin ropes though...

I have both an ATC Guide and a Reverso 3. I use the latter more often because it works well with my ropes and it's lighter. I'd say, choose based on which one works better with your ropes.

I agree that the Reverso is awesome, lightweight, and easy to use in autoblock mode. But it is a little bit of bitch to feed rope through when belaying a leader. If you're deciding which autoblock to go with, I think you are weighing the slightly heavier ATC vs the slightly hard to feed Reverso. You probably won't go wrong with either. Since getting my Reverso, I wouldn't be without it. My girlfriend uses a Gri Gri most of the time, but it stays on the ground for multipitch. Can't comment on the Cinch.

Ben Speyer wrote:so i've been climbing single pitch for about 5-6 years and living in a place with not much multi-pitch and no one to do it with. Now I live in CO and have both but i'd like some advice on something better than my old ATC. I've been looking at reverso's and ATC guide's, but what's your favorite multi-pitch belay device and why? any kind I should stay away from? thanks for the tips Ben

I really like my Black Diamond ATC Guide. It's just so versatile:

1) Regular Belay of the leader
2) Second Belay of one or two climbers or twin ropes.
3) Can be used as an "ascender" lock off in guide mode off your harness.

The one thing, it's not too fun to lower or release rope if your second is weighting it... There are tricks of girthing some cordalette or dynex though it to pull it into release position. For this, the Petzl Reverso 3 "seems" a lot better since you can get a carabiner in there for some leverage. I have never used the Reverso 3 though in reverso mode.

For single pitch sport, I use a Gri-Gri, I never carry it on multi-pitch since it doesn't rap too well (scary rappel when I tried it once on a practice boulder)... You also can't second up two climbers at once or do twin ropes.

I have talked to people that have the Reverso 3, and bummed one one for single pitch belaying, never in reverso mode though. I really liked it. The price difference is insignificant to me since either one is a great product that will last you years.

I absolutely LOVE the Gri-Gri for multipitch! But if you are considering a first device, I would recommend the ATC Guide. Here are my thoughts on both:

Gri-Gri pros

• Very easy to belay a second directly off the anchor. Easier than the guide because the action is very smooth. This is especially nice if you and your partner are climbing fast because the second can literally run up the rock, and you can keep up.
• In a pinch, you can haul with a Gri-Gri. You can haul with the Guide also, but it is less pulley-like.
• Rappelling with a Gri-Gri is actually quite safe and easy once you learn how.
• If you are caught in a desperate situation, you can easily rope-solo with a Gri-Gri.

Gri-Gri cons

• Price.
• You cannot belay two seconds simultaneously like you can with a Guide.
• Doesn't work with double ropes.
• Weight. For me the advantages above all trump the weight of a Gri-Gri. In fact, when I'm climbing very long routes where I need to move fast, I always carry a Gri-Gri.
• Price.

ATC Guide pros

• Auto-block mode.
• Light weight.
• Can belay two seconds.
• Accommodates double ropes.
• Easy smooth rappels.
• Price.

ATC Guide cons

• No rope soloing.
• Slower than Gri-Gri when belaying a second in Guide mode.
• Requires one more locker than Gri-Gri (I admit, this is a small con).

First of all, its just a hunk of Aluminum with 2 slots in it, how much difference can there really be? Why in the world would someone own both a atc guide and a reverso? I am the biggest gear whore out there and I dont even have either. I have the same old atc I have had for years. I was belaying multipitch routes with it for about 14 years before they came out with an autoblock, never had a problem. I would even eat and drink while doing it.
How often do you bring up 2 seconds at the same time? Do you even own, or even know someone who owns doubles? Do you really think you can ascend a rope with those things, 2 prusicks is a hell of a lot easier.
How many times has anyone out there had to lower a second on a locked off autoblock? Did the get knocked out? have a heart attack? I have never had that happen, and neither have any of you. so why debate the merits of how hard it is to do whith these devices, if you think you might have to lower a second, you better be using a standard belay device with a redirect. Get rid of your reverso, leave the cordolette at home, you really don't need all that crap, it just slows you down. The reality is that if you want to be good, climbing things that are above the average climbers ability or comfort level, you better learn how to be fast, and get by with less gear. If you want to be average (nothing wrong with that) then by all means build a perfect power point and select which device you want to use right then (you are carrying both right, you need a back up, you know)

Cota wrote:First of all, its just a hunk of Aluminum with 2 slots in it, how much difference can there really be? Why in the world would someone own both a atc guide and a reverso? I am the biggest gear whore out there and I dont even have either. I have the same old atc I have had for years. I was belaying multipitch routes with it for about 14 years before they came out with an autoblock, never had a problem. I would even eat and drink while doing it. How often do you bring up 2 seconds at the same time? Do you even own, or even know someone who owns doubles? Do you really think you can ascend a rope with those things, 2 prusicks is a hell of a lot easier. How many times has anyone out there had to lower a second on a locked off autoblock? Did the get knocked out? have a heart attack? I have never had that happen, and neither have any of you. so why debate the merits of how hard it is to do whith these devices, if you think you might have to lower a second, you better be using a standard belay device with a redirect. Get rid of your reverso, leave the cordolette at home, you really don't need all that crap, it just slows you down. The reality is that if you want to be good, climbing things that are above the average climbers ability or comfort level, you better learn how to be fast, and get by with less gear. If you want to be average (nothing wrong with that) then by all means build a perfect power point and select which device you want to use right then (you are carrying both right, you need a back up, you know)

True, it's a bit whorish to have both, but I didn't like having to fight with the reverso and feeding it...so I got a guide instead. Wasn't a huge pain, but just annoying.

Lowering someone on a lock autoblock isn't the problem. If they fall hard enough seconding it will lock the device. Hence the concern. The heart attack, rockfall scenario is a possibility, but I think most people are talking just enough of a fall to lock it.

Sure you can use an atc for anything...or a stitch plate or an eight...but hey if you can get a better tool why not? It's not like the hammer and saw have stayed the same since carpentry began.

I haven't brought up 2 seconds myself, but not because I can't..just don't want to!! Multipitch with more than 2 is tooo much of a pain. One experience was enough for me, even though with doubles it is substantially easier.

Ascending?? Nah, you're right on that, but I still use cordellette. More slings than anything, but on a wide and bomber anchor they are still pretty good. And extra cord to cut doesn't hurt either.

climbmaxmountaineering.com/…

Cota wrote:leave the cordolette at home

Why? What do you use instead that makes it that much quicker?

Cota wrote: (you are carrying both right, you need a back up, you know)

It's good to carry a backup but better to know what knots you can use, and how you can improvise if for some reason you lose your backup.

Also I would think it would take extra time to have to redirect the belay at every belay. In less than ideal situations I think it's way quicker to be able to belay directly from the anchor with autoblock.

Cota wrote:How often do you bring up 2 seconds at the same time?

Depends on what your climbing. I recently took a party of three (myself and two others) up an 8 pitch trad route. With two ropes I belayed the first climber about 15 feet above the other, than the second climber started climbing. If your talking about speed(that technique probably saved over an hour.) Why take three? cause it's nice to get with friends on a long easy route. I know plenty of people who do "above average" routes in the mountains with three and do it like this.

Cota wrote:How often do you bring up 2 seconds at the same time?

Quite often, actually. It's fairly common for me to climb with two partners, and bringing them both up at the same time makes the climb go just as fast as with one partner.

Cota wrote:Do you even own, or even know someone who owns doubles?

I'm surprised you'd even ask such a question. Doubles are my standard rig for multi-pitch, I only use singles for cragging. And yes, I know many leaders who own and use them. Have doubles just not made it up to Alaska yet?

JL

Bryan Duxbury wrote: You can rap with a gri gri. The little packet of info that comes with it shows how.

Okay, I found the documentation and I stand corrected. It's not the way I'd want to do it though.

JL

Cota wrote:First of all, its just a hunk of Aluminum with 2 slots in it, how much difference can there really be? Why in the world would someone own both a atc guide and a reverso? I am the biggest gear whore out there and I dont even have either. I have the same old atc I have had for years. I was belaying multipitch routes with it for about 14 years before they came out with an autoblock, never had a problem. I would even eat and drink while doing it. How often do you bring up 2 seconds at the same time? Do you even own, or even know someone who owns doubles? Do you really think you can ascend a rope with those things, 2 prusicks is a hell of a lot easier. How many times has anyone out there had to lower a second on a locked off autoblock? Did the get knocked out? have a heart attack? I have never had that happen, and neither have any of you. so why debate the merits of how hard it is to do whith these devices, if you think you might have to lower a second, you better be using a standard belay device with a redirect. Get rid of your reverso, leave the cordolette at home, you really don't need all that crap, it just slows you down. The reality is that if you want to be good, climbing things that are above the average climbers ability or comfort level, you better learn how to be fast, and get by with less gear. If you want to be average (nothing wrong with that) then by all means build a perfect power point and select which device you want to use right then (you are carrying both right, you need a back up, you know)

Interesting. I personally use an old school Reverso since my SBGII burned out. So far, I like it. Lately, though, I've been playing around with being a minimalist.

Realistically, for multipitch, couldn't you simply:
1. Belay a leader with a Munter Hitch (1 HMS locker)
2. Belay a follower with an Alpine Clutch/Garda Hitch to autoblock(2 lockers) or a Munter.
3. Rappel with a biner break

Realistically, you end up with no extra gear whatsoever. I'll probably keep playing around with this set up, but so far I haven't had issues with rope twist if I'm not lowering someone with the Munter.

Anyway, just some things I'd been thinking about. It really makes you wonder... is it worth $25-30 bucks for an autoblocking tube device?

I'm curious if anyone uses the alpine clutch for belaying a second from above, or if they just save it for hauling or emergency stuff. It's a pretty rad hitch to know and use.

edit: agree on the cordalette thing... they take more time to set up and tear down instead of just connecting things with either the climbing rope or a sling or 2. Using the climbing rope works just fine, especially if you are using a 70m.