clove hitching 2 strands

Alright, I have a question with a probably really simple answer.

Is it acceptable to tie a clove hitch with a doubled up strand of rope? I ask because I usually make equalettes by clove hitching the 2 points with a single strand of cordalette. Then, I tie an 8 on a bite on the doubled up coradlette for the last point(like the honker knot for TR master points). I was thinking that just clove hitching that point as well would be faster and more flexible. Is there a reason not to do that?

Evan

need picture

I'm not sure if I understand your description, but it sounds like something I wouldn't want to do.

To attach yourself to an anchor? That you'll be putting your life on? And your partner's? I'd rephrase your question: "Is there a reason to do that?"

I think I'm following you. Imagine you're using 4 anchor points (instead of, apparently, three). You'll be clove hitching two points with one "half" of the equalette, like you're already doing. The other "half" would be clove hitched similarly to the other two points. Now imagine you've got three anchor points. The second "half" of the equalette could be clove hitched to that point the same way as if there were two points there. You don't have to make the clove hitch with the doubled up equalette. Does that make sense? If it makes sense, does anybody see any reason not to do it that way? Of course, you lose the redundancy of not using the second strand, but what's more likely to fail: the strand itself or the anchor piece?

How about this:

ask at rockclimbing.com

You'll get more than an earfull of responses, pictures, diagrams, physics equations, etc...

I think he means something like this:

Richard Radcliffe wrote:I think I'm following you. Imagine you're using 4 anchor points (instead of, apparently, three). You'll be clove hitching two points with one "half" of the equalette, like you're already doing. The other "half" would be clove hitched similarly to the other two points. Now imagine you've got three anchor points. The second "half" of the equalette could be clove hitched to that point the same way as if there were two points there. You don't have to make the clove hitch with the doubled up equalette. Does that make sense? If it makes sense, does anybody see any reason not to do it that way? Of course, you lose the redundancy of not using the second strand, but what's more likely to fail: the strand itself or the anchor piece?

Richard's comments are right on. So is his diagram for proper setup of an equalette. I don't think Daryl Allan's photo is accurate as the op talks about an eight for his master point. Cloving two stands on one side of your equalette is what is in question. Some tests claim cloves slip at 1500lbf. Others claim biners usually fail before the cloves. I have never seen a test on a "doubled" clove. If it does slip, it is still hitched inside the loop and will hit a stopping point. Question is, did you gain anything by doubling your clove to include two strands at a risk of greater chance of the clove slipping. I'd look into tests on the force required to make a double clove slip vs a single before I'd use it on the rock.

Richard's setup is excellent and pretty much all I ever use. I don't use a cordalette anymore.

Evan - do you mean this?:

3 cloves up top, 3 overhands in the middle, 2 sliding 'x' at the bottom.

ok, so not to hijack, but what exactly is the difference between a cordolette and an equalette?

Jesse Davidson wrote:ok, so not to hijack, but what exactly is the difference between a cordolette and an equalette?

Richard's drawing shows an equalette. I'll post a picture of the two and their differences tomorrow if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Equalettes more or less guarantee equalization of the load between two are more pieces regardless of the direction of the load. Cordalettes have very poor equalization among the pieces even with the best anticipation of load direction (which can change) and with different lengths to the different pieces making up an anchor.

Gregger Man wrote:Evan - do you mean this?: 3 cloves up top, 3 overhands in the middle, 2 sliding 'x' at the bottom.

So, from the dumb question department, why the overhands AND the cloves? The cloves look totally unnecessary.

In the unlikely event that a section of cordalette breaks between the overhand and the carabiner, it is no longer attached to the carabiner. Now refer to Gregger Man's photo above. A clove hitch will hold one strand of cordalette should a break between the overhand and the carabiner occur. You could effectively break one strand from each piece in the anchor and still be alive.
I don't know how useful this is in practice though. I would think a clove hitch (between a hard carabiner and rock) would be more likely to be abraded than a section between the clove and overhand. If the clove hitch doesn't hold, what I said above is useless.

ccross wrote:In the unlikely event that a section of cordalette breaks between the overhand and the carabiner...

I prefer keeping things as simple as possible. Why risk screwing an anchor up when you are tired and in a hurry for an extra margin of safety that you don't really need. Simple is safe.

Gregger Man wrote:Evan - do you mean this?: 3 cloves up top, 3 overhands in the middle, 2 sliding 'x' at the bottom.

Yes, well kind of.

My question was specifically asking if it is proper to clove double strands like the one on the right biner. It appears to be acceptable from the picture.

I usually setup my equalettes like richards diagram except I thought cloving the double strands would add redendancy to that strand and it doesn't take more time.

Thanks for the thoughts
Evan

ccross wrote:In the unlikely event that a section of cordalette breaks between the overhand and the carabiner, it is no longer attached to the carabiner. Now refer to Gregger Man's photo above. A clove hitch will hold one strand of cordalette should a break between the overhand and the carabiner occur. You could effectively break one strand from each piece in the anchor and still be alive. I don't know how useful this is in practice though. I would think a clove hitch (between a hard carabiner and rock) would be more likely to be abraded than a section between the clove and overhand. If the clove hitch doesn't hold, what I said above is useless.

The bigger reason for putting in limiter knots is to limit the amount of shock loading and extension if a piece fails. I agree that cutting the strand is unlikely.

It's not as pertinent with the setup greg has, but very pertinent in the sliding x configuration(as is the magic twist).

Just another thought

Evan

Moof wrote: So, from the dumb question department, why the overhands AND the cloves? The cloves look totally unnecessary.

The cloves keep proper tension and length on each anchor piece and also (importantly) they make each clove/strand independently connected to the master point.

I think your system is pretty slick, the doubled cloves are not a problem unless they crossloaded the biner which seems unlikely. The best part is that the clove slipping would actually equalize the loading on each piece.

What I don't like is that I could do the same thing with a bunny-ear knot and a shoulder sling, take 1/3 or less of the time, and still have a safer setup due to the dynamic nature of my rope. Escaping my anchor would take more patience but I think the time saved would increase my safety margin in most multi-pitch settings.

KISS is still king.

Here is a pic of the bunny ear equal.

( edit: It's hard to see but there is a knot in the sling at the locking biner to protect from extension. Any two pieces could blow and this anchor is still bomber. You can use the locker to belay your second or the top shelf of the bunny ear knot.)
Sometimes if two of the points are near each other I will put two pieces through one ear.

BTW I also think this is the best knot for hauling(bag side) and fixing lines.

Kevin, you're out of paper towels... thought you should know.

Moof-
This isn't the system that I use. I saw the dorkalette post over at bigwalls.com and was applying that to Evan's question. The 4-piece version of this anchor with cloves up top and sliders at the bottom is interesting, though. Perhaps a bit over-engineered.