Petzl Reverso 3 self braking function

I recently purchased a Reverso 3 because my previous Reverso was worn out. I've always been able to adjust the ease of feed in self braking function by the number and type of carbiner with the older version of Reverso's. I was ready to return my Reverso 3 because I could not get a good feed of the rope when I discovered a new way to ease the feed for fat ropes. If I'm using my 9.2 rope the Reverso works with no problems. When using a 10mm rope I discovered if you thread two carbiners through the anchor carbiner it will prevent the rope / biners from binding and give you a good feed and still lock of the climber. Has anyone else tried this? I'm sending off this same information to Petzl for review.

Clarification 1: The setup applies all of the load in the same places as specified in the Reverso Notice, Note 11.

Clarification 2: The brake bar biners are allowed to move free as specified in the Reverso notice, Note 11. By threading them through the anchor biner the brake bar biners are managed. If the brake bar biners are not threaded through the anchor biners they tend to run free and cause the rope to become wedged between the belay device and biners.

Clarification 3: This setup does not hinder helping the second (releasing a second in suspension) as described in the Reverso notice, Note 11b.

Reference attached pictures.

picasaweb.google.com/byrong…

This guy tests the multiple biner setup on the BD ATC-Guide. Interesting results...

bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp_a…

Byron Murray wrote: When using a 10mm rope I discovered if you thread two carbiners through the anchor carbiner it will prevent the rope / biners from binding and give you a good feed and still lock off the climber. Has anyone else tried threading the rope biner through the anchor biner?

I tried this with my reverso3 with a 9.7mm rope and the setup just felt awkward to me. I didnt get a solid lock off when the rope was weighted (may be better with a thicker rope) and I actually found it harder to take the line in.

Isn't three HMS biners and a reverso 3 going to weigh more than a gri-gri and an HMS biner?

Wouldn't that setup side load the biners across the spine?

If we assume that friction when taking in depends on the total bending angle the rope goes through--that is, if we assume that the capstan equation applies--then the important parameter is the angle formed by the rope as it exits the device on the brake side. (The total bending angle being 180 degrees plus twice that angle.)

A difference between the pictures posted by Byron and those on Kolin Powick's "QC blog" is that the brake biners are clipped through the one connecting the device to the anchor in the former case, but not in the latter. The geometry of the Reverso 3 is also a bit different from that of the ATC Guide. The combined effect is that the exit angle is likely different, and the inconsistency in results may be explained.

John Calder wrote:Wouldn't that setup side load the biners across the spine?

I didn't see a setup cross loading a biner. Which were you talking about?

In the second photo, because the break bar biners are clipped to the locker at the power point and through the rope, the rope is going across the spines of the carabiners instead of through the wells.

I don't know if this is a problem or not but it just doesn't seem right to me. I guess it's not truly being side loaded, just loaded across the spine instead of the well. I have no idea what impact this may have on the biner, I've just never seen it done that way and it seems a little funky to me. Maybe I'm screwed up?

There is an issue in this rig, but it's not that you see enough to hit the system from a seconding climber for a biner load failure (as you see in the product notice, they indicate acceptable use wherever the rope aligns as long as the rope doesn't ride the gate).

The issue is more that the brake-bar biners need to be free in their range of motion. BD's site shows this; so does the Reverso notice (so the original post question to Petzl will probably be answered by looking at their product safety information).

Unclip the brake-bar biners from the anchor.

Best to defer back to the manufacturers recommendation, I'm not sure why the 2 attaches are clipped back into the attache on the anchor. Does this setup compromise lowering on a the loaded plaquette?

Hey John Calder, in a 6 carabiner braking system we used the no gate side of the biner all the time. It is a handy thing to know as well as a muenter hitch in case you lose your belay/rap device.

Who the heck is Muenter??

John Calder wrote:In the second photo, because the break bar biners are clipped to the locker at the power point and through the rope, the rope is going across the spines of the carabiners instead of through the wells. I don't know if this is a problem or not but it just doesn't seem right to me. I guess it's not truly being side loaded, just loaded across the spine instead of the well. I have no idea what impact this may have on the biner, I've just never seen it done that way and it seems a little funky to me. Maybe I'm screwed up?

Hey John, I think I understand what you are seeing now. that the rope is attached to the brake biner's side or spine instead of at the ends. This isn't cross loading. Cross loading (loading across the spine) is if you were to attach one rope like that and then another (your anchor perhaps) on the gate side and pull opposite each other.

One thing you DO have to watch for a little bit though is some of the newer uber light biners have a wider rope bearing surface in the "wells" and the spine is narrow to save weight, this sharp bend over your biner isn't good on your rope and will reduce the rope's strength. But with these Attaches, its good to go.

I'm with Buff though about the brake biners clipped into the anchor, I think they'd be better to be able to move and self adjust.

sunofabiatch. ya, Munter/Muenter.

Muenter was Munter's Swiss counterpart. Come on Buff...

Clarification 1: The setup applies all of the load in the same places as specified in the Reverso Notice, Note 11.

Clarification 2: The brake bar biners are allowed to move free as specified in the Reverso notice, Note 11. By threading them through the anchor biner the brake bar biners are managed. If the brake bar biners are not threaded through the anchor biners they tend to run free and cause the rope to become wedged between the belay device and biners.

Clarification 3: This setup does not hinder helping the second (releasing a second in suspension) as described in the Reverso notice, Note 11b.