Camalot C4 - Gold Standard?

I'm posting this to see if anyone else has seen or heard of this happening. I've shown it to a couple people, and they were as surprised as I was.

History:
I have a set (.3 - 3) newer C4's, I bought them just under a year ago, and have never lent them out to anyone (so I can account for all of their use). I've taken a 15 foot fall on the number 1 right after I bought them, and since then they have been used under normal conditions. They have never been loaded in a weird way, never been placed horizontally, dropped, or misused in any way. I usually check the action and condition before any big trip, so hopefully if there was a problem I would catch it before it fails to catch me.

Problem:
Yesterday I just happened to squeeze the trigger on the # 1, and discovered poor action, and two of the lobes became stuck and didn't retract. I found this odd, so I started looking at it (thinking it could use some lube) and found that one of the inner lobes was bent outward. The bend occurs just above where the lobe attaches to the axle. The bend is causing the lobe to rub against the opposite axle than it's attached to, creating friction that prevents the lobe from retracting. Also, the lobe that is bent seems to have a lot of play in it (lateral movement). You can easily see the bend in the lobe without any measuring tools.

Anyone seen or heard of this? I'll post pics when I get them, and will be contact B.D. to see if they have any ideas as to what happened. No other cams (c3s or c4s) were damaged like this.

Unfortunately it's not the Trigger cable that is bent. One of the inner cam lobes is what is bent.

it sounds more like an axle is bent. one of my #4 camalots has a bent axle that causes the two lobes to actually rub together when it is fully open. in my case, it doesn't really affect the action, and the only time i use this piece is on sustained #4 desert cracks as a last ditch piece. not sure what to tell you about yours. post some pics if you can. it seems like this is sort of common, i've seen posts by others with bent axles after falling on them.

I'll post em as soon as I can get home (shhhhh, don't tell, I'm at work). You'll be able to see that it's actually the lobe, not the axle. What's weird, is that the cam was fine after I took the fall, as I had been using it for almost a year afterwords. The problem/bending must have occurred recently, as I check my gear often.

Brent Silvester wrote: Also, the lobe that is bent seems to have a lot of play in it (lateral movement). You can easily see the bend in the lobe without any measuring tools. Anyone seen or heard of this?

According to BD, the side to side movement is normal and part of the design. The bent lobe is a different question.

Let me say that I think C4's are the gold standard and make up most of my rack.

That said, I think that the single stem design is less durable than say the metolius design.

Also, when forces are applied to the cam lobes in uconventional ways(not on the camming faces), it is pretty easy to create leverage that might bend the lobes. I passed a severely overcammed fixd yellow that had two lobes bent so far that the axle portion on one side was what was making contact on the rock.

Evan

I'm not trying to bash Camalots. I love em to death. I think their range is good, placing them for me is easy, and the action is wonderful. I'm just confused as to how this happened. It has never been over cammed, never had to use a nut tool in retrieving it, never been stepped on, and it certainly has never been dropped. Has anyone seen or heard of this happening under normal conditions?

Something I forgot to mention is that the inner lobe that's bent is bent outward, like if you put a crowbar in between the two inner lobes, and pried them apart.

I contacted BD, and will be shipping it to them soon. I'll let you all know how that goes.

Brent Silvester wrote:Has anyone seen or heard of this happening under normal conditions?

Sounds like what happened to one of mine. I had a #5 Camalot that a couple lobes got bent inward. All I can figure is that I errantly threw a heavy pack on top of the cam in my car at one point. I was pretty bummed to say the least because it had never been fallen on or dropped or anything like that, I think it was just a stupid mistake on my part. Friends have told me to send it in to BD but I figure it was probably my fault so I don't expect anything to happen. I'd be curious to know what BD says to you.

At what point are the lobes bending? Is there a definitive angle in them, or is it a gradual slope? Is it at the base near the axle or towards the tip? Have you tried bending them back? How malleable is the metal? Only on the horizontal axis? I could keep asking questions, but a picture is worth, well you know. If someone could post one I would love to see exactly whats happening.

I don't think I can bend them back with the tools at my disposal. Even if I could, knowing that it's aluminum, I don't think I would. Aluminum alloys lose strength after they have been bent, or so I've been told.

Here are some pics.

Wowaz...that's definitely a bend. from the pictures it looks like it may actually be the axle...the lobes are pretty sturdy and it would take a LOT of force to bend them like that, while the axles can be more easily subjected (due to leverage) to forces that will bend them like that.

Uh-oh, the shade of red is a tell tale sign that is a chinese made cam.

Just kidding, I personally think the quality is the same as US made ones. The political impact, on the otherhand, leaves something to be desired.

Anyway, after seeing the pics, my guess is that forces were applied to the side of the red lobes, thus bending the axles slightly and together and splaying the metal lobes apart. Most probable culprit is a heavy pack.

As other people have attested, this is not unheard of. Also, it makes sense that most people are having this problem with bigger cams because the lobes would create more leverage.

I'd be interested to see how BD resolves this. Personally, by your description of events leading to this, I think it might fall under the abuse catagory, but BD is supposedly pretty good about taking care of their customers.

Best of Luck,
Evan

Send it back to BD. It will help them with QC and I'm sure they will replace it. I had a friend take a good fall that actually only engaged one set of lobes because the others were bound up by the cam springs. They replaced it no question and I'm sure spent some time trying to evaluate the problem to make the cams safer in the future.

Evan1984 wrote:Anyway, after seeing the pics, my guess is that forces were applied to the side of the red lobes, thus bending the axles slightly and together and splaying the metal lobes apart. Most probable culprit is a heavy pack. As other people have attested, this is not unheard of.

I'm not saying that is impossible, but I'm struggling to understand how forces of ~100 lbs at most in a pack could compare to that in a fall. I guess the direction and application of force could be different...but enough to bend the axles?

there is no way the axle is going to be bent just cause you dropped you pack. the axle strength greater than a grade 8 bolt, which is used to build cars and trucks. even if the lobes were used as a lever, the axle still couldn't be bent under normal(or even abnormal) pack weight

Kind of unrelated, but last October in the creek I took a decent whip onto a green (.75) c4. It was placed sort of shallow in a splitter crack, and the impact caused the outer part of the crack to break, leaving the outer 2 lobes fully open.

The cam held, but when I got back to the ground, I realized that the cam lobes no longer retracted. At the time I thought the axle might have been bent, but maybe it was the lobe(s)? Anyways, the cam was no longer functional.

I emailed BD about it, and they were very responsive and helpful. They gave me a pro-deal on a new one, 35 bucks, including shipping. I was psyched, since it wasn't really BD's fault and I was pretty happy the piece held at all considering the rock failure.

So, contact BD, and it seems like at the least they'll give you a pro-deal.

-Scott

JLP,
Was that french?

Tony Metzger wrote:JLP, Was that french?

Yeah, I dont speak french either....good stuff tho... :P

Ive been using camalots, and now C4's, forever. They are the gold standard(IMHO) and set the bar. Rugged, well made, good design and great range. Easy to rack n place and dont "walk" too bad- I have tried many others and nothing comes close. Well worth the miniscule extra weight for sure.

I have tossed my pack, dropped my pack, fell on em, pulled-pried-tooled then out, used em' passively and seen one bounce down a cliff(retired it) and, through all of this, I have NEVER seen or had bent axle's. Never. Thats 14+ yrs of climbing. **Note- on P6 of the Casual Route- there are some stuck 1's, they may of had bent axles??**

So, for you few, I thinks its like lightning- every now and then it strikes a person, but the odds are LOOOOOOOW. Know what I'm saying?? :) I think either something REAL freaky you dont know happened-happened, or, you just got unlucky and got a lemmon. Or, maybe, walked by a REALLY BIG magnet...???

Tony Metzger wrote:Was that french?

It's just the bending formula for a beam with rectangular cross section. Assume the stress equaled the yield strength of the material, because the lobe was deformed. Derive the bending moment by multiplying by the second moment of area and dividing by half the height of the cross section. Finally, divide by the arm of the force to find the force itself.

Peter Kananen wrote: I'm not saying that is impossible, but I'm struggling to understand how forces of ~100 lbs at most in a pack could compare to that in a fall. I guess the direction and application of force could be different...but enough to bend the axles?

Keep in mind everything here is speculative.

But, if the cam was lying on its side with the flat part(non-rock bearing surface) of the red lobe on the ground, and you stepped on or smashed the red lobe on the other side, the cam is fairly delicate. the forces are much different than those applied in a normal fall that engages the unit because it creates leverage and there is no oppositional force.

I wish I could pass the cam around to you guys so you could see it in person. I really don't think the axle is bent. The other side of the cam is perfectly fine, and the outer red lobes don't seem to be bent. Only the one metal lobe (you can see where it bends in the picture). I'm also guessing that if one was to step on the cam while it was laying flat on the ground, the 7075 aluminum would bend way before the 4130 CoMolly would. I like the idea of a 100lb pack landing on the cam, but I don't think I'd ever carry something like that. Also, the lobe is bent outward. If it was bent inward, I could see that being from a person or pack landing on it.

Again, I'm not trying to blame BD for it. I just want to know how it happened, so I don't (if it's something I did) repeat it on my other gear. Unfortunately I don't make enough $$ to keep replacing gear.