REI not to be.

It seems the owners of the Tucson Mall have declared bankruptcy, and attempts to get a new loan have failed. "Forever 21", a clothing retailer, was supposed to open it's flagship store in the new addition but has decided to open in the Mervins space. With the failure of the loan, it looks as though construction will not restart.

SOunds like great news for the specialy shops in that area. I know that was going to hurt their business. REI has enough money... Support shops like AZ hiking shack and Summit Hut.

Summit Hut's return policy has changed. As far as price, they are charging what the manufacturer recommends.

SAL wrote:SOunds like great news for the specialy shops in that area. I know that was going to hurt their business. REI has enough money... Support shops like AZ hiking shack and Summit Hut.

Somehow, the suggestion that driving to phoenix for AZ hiking shack is better than having a local REI just doesn't work for me.

This is a pretty big bummer. I like summit hut, but having them be the only game in town is really limiting.

Forest Hill wrote: Somehow, the suggestion that driving to phoenix for AZ hiking shack is better than having a local REI just doesn't work for me. This is a pretty big bummer. I like summit hut, but having them be the only game in town is really limiting.

Thats a bummer to hear as well. Small town shops survive by local climbers. REI does not even come close to the selection that shops such as summit hut have. I can't say too much for the floor staff at REI. Usually they have no clue what they are talking about.

To touch on the return policy for SH above. Sounds like things have changed. One thing that never seems to amaze me is the quanity of people that actually use and abuse REI"s policy over and over. I dont blame shops like SH for not being such a high class bend over and eat it company. Too many people abuse the program.
Anyways. My two cents on this.

I was at the REI in Tempe Friday and one of the worker bees said even though the building thing is having issues they still had plans to be here before 2010. Take it at face value....could be b.s. but the guy was pretty excited to "let me know" when I said I was from Tucson.

SAL wrote:REI does not even come close to the selection that shops such as summit hut have.

That's just absurd. Have you even been into these two stores? One is a small fraction the square footage and selection of the others.

I'm in support of local businesses as anyone, but having no choice but summit hut in this town is bad for everyone.

Yeah, some folks who work at REI don't know what they're talking about, just like any other store. But I can't tell you the number of people who've gotten bunk gear advice at Summit Hut, too. Some of the people who work there are great. Others really shouldn't be giving advice on say, climbing shoes, and somehow aren't willing to point customers at another employee who maybe does.

A friend of mine was interested in getting started climbing after a few trips to Rocks & Ropes. She goes in and the sales guy sells her La Sportiva Katanas! Which of course were so painful that she wore them a handful of times before resuming renting shoes! But of course, no returns on climbing shoes...

I've heard variants of that particular story several times, and that's just for shoes.

Again, I like summit hut, and I'm happy to shop there and support them. But some competition in this town would be a great thing.

And I've no problem with supporting a company like REI either.

I dont know about this but I have always been a proponent of small business. However, that being said, the REI's in the world dont always have to have the label...The REI in Tempe has a good number of people in there that test the products that they sell... There is a great Backpacking guy that kayaks, one that I know of that climbs frequently and has given me useful beta for my Yosemite trip and the manager has been there for almost 10 years.
That being said, I think all business have the ability to hire idiots and drawing people away from REI is not the answer...They dont inindate the market...There are only two stores in the PHX area...and they are miles from one another...They do have a good return policy and clearance can be helpful if you are a poor climber like me...Trying to convince my wife to buy a 250 dollar jacket because it says North Face is like pulling teeth out of grandma's head...Painful to say the least...However, that being said, the small guy usually gets my money when they can afford to offer it reasonably. Does that mean Mountain Gears and CampMor's are off limits too? They are corporation / businesses... Do they know more or less? If REI sponsered more climbers would they be more acceptable?

ahh another REI thread...every few months it comes back.

Roach, you may be right. I don't see Tucson Mall owners not finishing the addition. I would think TM would work some kind of deal with REI. Kind of a drag they won't be in before Christmas.

I also like Summit Hut. I have to stop in about once a week for a fix. It seems Dave Baker has done alot NOT to alienate the local climbers, hikers et al.

Forest Hill wrote: That's just absurd. Have you even been into these two stores? One is a small fraction the square footage and selection of the others. I'm in support of local businesses as anyone, but having no choice but summit hut in this town is bad for everyone. Yeah, some folks who work at REI don't know what they're talking about, just like any other store. But I can't tell you the number of people who've gotten bunk gear advice at Summit Hut, too. Some of the people who work there are great. Others really shouldn't be giving advice on say, climbing shoes, and somehow aren't willing to point customers at another employee who maybe does. A friend of mine was interested in getting started climbing after a few trips to Rocks & Ropes. She goes in and the sales guy sells her La Sportiva Katanas! Which of course were so painful that she wore them a handful of times before resuming renting shoes! But of course, no returns on climbing shoes... I've heard variants of that particular story several times, and that's just for shoes. Again, I like summit hut, and I'm happy to shop there and support them. But some competition in this town would be a great thing. And I've no problem with supporting a company like REI either.

Yes Forest. I have been to both. I visit them annually. I have found that they carry an extensive selection of climbing gear. How many portaledges does REI have? Haul bags? Maybe a shit tube???

In terms of your shoe story. That is not absurd at all. Sounds like when your friend was asked if the shoe feels ok. She should have said no. Yeah. They are in charge of a proper fit. They dont have feeling in the customers feet so in some ways it is on both ends. Sportiva Katana's are a great shoe for anyone. That return policy is not a summit hut policy. It woudl be a La SPortiva policy. so bitch at them not the guy that fitted your freind.

Anyways support whomever you want. In the end REI's will put shops out of business and we wont have a place to walk in to get REAL beta on climbing. REAL gear besides what Johnny Noob needs to start the sport. How many times have you called an REI to get info on a local climbing area. Or...
had an REI employee take you on a tour of an area on their day off??
Thats the treatment I recieved from SUmmit Hut. You just don't get that from REI.
But hell.
Their return policy kicks ass.

SAL wrote: Yes Forest. I have been to both. I visit them annually. I have found that they carry an extensive selection of climbing gear. How many portaledges does REI have? Haul bags? Maybe a shit tube???

These are not things anybody is looking for on a regular basis, and I'm personally happy to mail order them for the one time ever I'm likely top need them (except for the shit tube. Why buy something you can make for $10 in parts from a HW store?) I have a hard time believing that any climber, cash-strapped or otherwise would buy these things from a retail store.

SAL wrote: In terms of your shoe story. That is not absurd at all. Sounds like when your friend was asked if the shoe feels ok. She should have said no. Yeah. They are in charge of a proper fit. They dont have feeling in the customers feet so in some ways it is on both ends. Sportiva Katana's are a great shoe for anyone.

No. Katanas are not an appropriate shoe for a 40-year-old woman just getting into climbing. They are an aggressive sport climbing shoe, as described by La Sportiva themselves. She went to the shop because she didn't know how they were supposed to fit. That was the advice she was expecting to get from the shop. They told her "tight and painful is how they're supposed to fit." She didn't know because she was a beginner.

SAL wrote:That return policy is not a summit hut policy.

It sure is. I can return climbing shoes at a number of other retailers.

SAL wrote:How many times have you called an REI to get info on a local climbing area.

The same number of times I've called Summit Hut.

SAL wrote:Or... had an REI employee take you on a tour of an area on their day off?? Thats the treatment I recieved from SUmmit Hut.

That's great. Somehow, tho, that never happened to me or anyone else I know, nor does that have anything to do with the shop itself. That was a great thing that the employee did for you, but it sure wasn't a factor of their being a Summit Hut employee.

Now, look. I do shop at Summit Hut, and I will continue to do so. But REI is not wal-mart. They do a lot of things I like, and I think better selection in outdoor stores (or just one other outdoor store at all) would be a good thing for all involved.

I have never found an employee in either REI or Summit Hut who was more knowledgable about climbing gear/shoes than myself. I say this not to brag on me, but as a testament to the lack of knowledgable sales staff in any of these stores. Typically, I can tell within a couple seconds of asking a question that they don't know, and are just trying to sell me something. But then that's their job...

The point is, I don't look to these stores to advise me, because I know they can't.

What I look for in a store is convenience, a pleasant shopping experience, good selection, fair pricing, and great customer service. I also try to consider whether the store/company gives back to the community. I think both Summit Hut and REI meet these criteria reasonably well.

I will continue to shop at both. I just know better than to expect good advice.

Also, if REI really wants to be here, they will find a location. They'll be here sooner or later.

Forest Hill wrote: I'm in support of local businesses as anyone, but having no choice but summit hut in this town is bad for everyone.

It's certainly not bad for DB.

I for one hope REI remains out of Tucson. While they want to project the image of the co-op run company, in essence, they're the Walmart of the outdoor world. They have put many small climbing shops out of business over the years without a backward glance. And done so with eyes wide open.

The story in the retail world from long ago (early '80s) was that REI did a market survey and chose to stay away from Tucson due to the strong and professional way SH was run. That story came from a number of different industry insiders and was at the time REI went into Phnx so... Draw your own conclusions. That doesn't mean that REI workers are evil or stupid only that the company is run like any big US retailer.

As for returns, the only way REI can survive the abuse of that return policy is by being so big. You can't blame the SH for not putting up with the stuff people will try to pull.

As to the knowledge of the workers, I've known employees of both stores who were more than just excellent climbers.

The two biggest things REI wants in an employee is customer service skills and can he/she sell memberships.

rickd wrote:PD- what about bObS BaRgiN bArN? (direct competitor to DB until '94?, e. side of Country Club just north of Grant when Summit Hut was on s. side of Speedway near Alvernon)

The story I heard from former Bob's employees who went on to work at Summit Hut after it closed was that financial mismanagement killed it. One of the former buyers had stories of calling vendors to see where product was only to find out that the last couple of invoices were not paid. I heard the owner got into high performance racing planes and just lost focus.

I worked at Summit Hut off and on over 5 years and Dave Baker was fully aware of the possibility of REI coming and was not terribly worried. He always said that the first year would be hurt a bit but that once the novelty wore off things would end up about the same.

Several people in this thread have commented about prices at SH coming down due to competition. SH generally carries brands with a suggested retail price and charges that price (with the exception of sales). I susect that outside of sales you would find exactly the same price on the same item at both stores. Exceptions would be commodity products like Nalgene bottles and of course house brand clothing/gear. REI also has the size to buy large batches of closeouts to feature in sales. The prices are lower, but their profit margin is going to be the same as SH takes on non-closeouts in most cases.

Enough pontificating for now. It is nice to see so many people passionate about the fate of the SH.

Best wishes,

George Marsden

rickd wrote:PD- what about bObS BaRgiN bArN? (direct competitor to DB until '94?, e. side of Country Club just north of Grant when Summit Hut was on s. side of Speedway near Alvernon) In Phx we lost Desert Mountain Sports, Holubar, and a number of other stores to REI (and Popular) as price point became the mantra. But we saw other stores survive (Hiking Shack). DB & SH have a pretty strong base here- I think an REI would do well although Summit Hut would close the Wetmore location...

Desert Mountain Sports closed when the, at the time, the new owner, became injured and couldn't manage the store. It was the best store in town for climbing. Additionally before this owner took over, the previous owner had started building up a white water kayak product line at the store, and the subsequent owner let this profitable area go by the wayside due to lack of interest. Too bad, as DMS was a great place to shop. I don't think REI had a real impact on the store, as I seldom drove to Tempe (only REI in town at the time) as I live on the north side. It was DMS, and then the Hiking Shack, before going to REI.

rickd wrote:tradster- FYI, I worked short time at the 16th street DMS and longer at the new on Indian School location (doing construction AND sales work). I knew Bill S better than most and worked with Keith B. In Bill's era, the threat of REI was always talked about.

I knew both of them. I'm sure Bill S. (R.I.P.) was concerned, but I feel that DMS would have survived because of the knowledge, extensive product line, and customer service they offered. That was an exemplary store. I still miss the place. We have nothing that comes close to what DMS was as a retail establishment here in metro Phoenix.

Tradster wrote: I knew both of them. I'm sure Bill S. (R.I.P.) was concerned, but I feel that DMS would have survived because of the knowledge, extensive product line, and customer service they offered. That was an exemplary store. I still miss the place. We have nothing that comes close to what DMS was as a retail establishment here in metro Phoenix.

I miss that place. My buddy and I when we were 14 saved up enough money to buy a rope, webbing, figure eight, and carabiners, and rode our bikes down there without our parents knowledge to buy our first bit of gear....just so we could explore Camelback even more, and get to the top of the monk. From then it was all over. I went there often, and they where always great. Bill was a bad ass. RIP