Helmets: suspension VS foam???

Hi all,

I'm debating choices of safety in my climbing helmet. I wear my old school Petzl Ecrin Roc suspension style because its paid for, durable, and comfortable. I feel good about the provided protection from impacts from rock fall etc, but worry, especially due to recent tragic events involving a side impact, that a pendulum or ground fall could leave my temporal and occipital regions less protected.

I was considering converting to a foam type helmet such as the petzl meteor because of the weight savings and what I perceive as better side impact protection. Of course, the disadvantage is the investment and durability.

Does anyone have insight/information/experience to persude/dissuade me from either of these choices.

Thanks
Evan

Evan1984 wrote:Hi all, I'm debating choices of safety in my climbing helmet. I wear my old school Petzl Ecrin Roc suspension style because its paid for, durable, and comfortable. I feel good about the provided protection from impacts from rock fall etc, but worry, especially due to recent tragic events involving a side impact, that a pendulum or ground fall could leave my temporal and occipital regions less protected. I was considering converting to a foam type helmet such as the petzl meteor because of the weight savings and what I perceive as better side impact protection. Of course, the disadvantage is the investment and durability. Does anyone have insight/information/experience to persude/dissuade me from either of these choices. Thanks Evan

I just switch from the meteor to teh petzl altios or whatever.
Becuase my buddy just dropped his pack and it cracked right down themiddle. The helmets are pretty much one time use i guess. Not the most durable. They are in fact super light and cozy to wear. that was a major pro for me. But i like to have that mental crux taken care of.
so i switched to somthing a bit more heavy duty and I believe the alitos is a combo? could be wrong. check it out. Its nice. I used it last weekend and was very siked.
cheers

Evan1984 wrote:I wear my old school Petzl Ecrin Roc suspension style because its paid for, durable, and comfortable. I feel good about the provided protection from impacts from rock fall etc, but worry, especially due to recent tragic events involving a side impact, that a pendulum or ground fall could leave my temporal and occipital regions less protected. I was considering converting to a foam type helmet such as the petzl meteor because of the weight savings and what I perceive as better side impact protection. Of course, the disadvantage is the investment and durability. Does anyone have insight/information/experience to persude/dissuade me from either of these choices. Thanks Evan

My approach to purchasing a helmet - if I need it, then I want the best! I thought the side impact was a serious deficiency, so I went with the meteor.

Yes, it's a one time use, however, that one time could mean the difference between life and death. Besides, how many impacts do you want to take with a helmet?

Brad

I personally don't like the straight-up foam helmets. I think that when I wear one, I like the durability of the plastic; I figure that if I'm going to get hit with a rock, there's a more than likely chance that there's going to be more than one rock involved, and I wanna helmet that's in there for the long(er) haul. I think it's especially true for alpine and ice climbing. Likewise, a bad lead fall often involves multiple impacts with hard surfaces.

When Petzl came out with their first foam helmet, I bought one and wore it for a while (Meteor I think). Then they came out with the plastic/foam helmet which I bought, and I've have been happier with that. Like SAL, I wear a Petzl Elios when I don a helmet. They are platic/foam combos that provide the best of both worlds: weight of foam; durability of plastic. Go to a store and put on just about any plastic/foam helmet and I think you'll be sold.

Good luck.

--Marc

Edit: I just went back and read the OP--and I guess you could just chalk my post up as a dissuasion, based upon my unsubstantiated, partial views.

But, in all seriousness, I think that basing a relatively significant decision on one event--tragic as it might be--is not always the best way to go. My $0.02.

--Marc

Hey Evan. Here's my take. I swithced from a suspension bd half dome to the tracer. I'm all into the lastest and greatest and since the tracer was about the lightest out there I had to have one. Junk. Cheap plastic crap from China comes to mind. The closures suck. The chin strap never stays put. The clips at the "v" in the strap never stay put. I have to readjust constantly. And for the ratchet on the back. Well, when I got hammered on Spearhear last week ( mountainproject.com/v/color… ) I put my hat on cause I was shivering my ass off and could not adjust that damn ratchet to accommodate the hat. I finally got it loose two days later at home. Also, I sweat a great deal in the helmet since it isn't suspension.

Conclusion. A good fitting helmet will protect the best. One that is easy to adjust and stayd there will protect best. One that is comfortable probably fits best and you will wear. Don't worry about the money. Or, buy used climbing ropes and get your car brakes replaced at the cheapest place possible.

PS. I witnessed and assisted in rescue a few months ago in Eldo. He fell appox 100 feet and sustained severe injuries. He did hit his head multiple times but did not sustain any severe head injuries. He was wearing an Ecrin Rock.

Greg D wrote:PS. I witnessed and assisted in rescue a few months ago in Eldo. He fell appox 100 feet and sustained severe injuries. He did hit his head multiple times but did not sustain any severe head injuries. He was wearing an Ecrin Rock.

Exactly. Thanks for that ancedotal evidence. I have been very surprised at the suggestion that the Ecrin Roc won't protect your forehead or the side of your head. I would be very surprised if a properly worn Ecrin Roc wouldn't be one of the best helmets for practical lead fall head protection on the market. But, I don't have any test studies to support that. If someone has a link to any testing on this, I'd really like to read it.

I just Googled impact studies on climbing helmets fairly thorougly, and found very little - certainly no formal studies about side impact performance. Lots of opinion, of course, suggesting that foam helmets provide better side protection from banging your head in a fall. Some references say the Ecrin Roc provides "no side protection" which I find a bit of an exaggeration.

The "get a bike helmet" recommendation is probably the truest from the perspective of just protecting your head from any sort of an impact during a fall. God knows I've taken enough mountain biking spills to know for sure - a good bike helmet saves your life. So, any climbing helmet that models that type of destructible thick foam protection and design is probably going to do better than hard shell mountaineering helmets like the Ecrin Roc with regard to hitting your head during a fall.

Ultimately, though, it's the act of actually wearing ANY type of helmet when BOTH leading and following that is the most important thing. I still see way too many leaders helmetless. I shouldn't be seeing any.

The British Mountaineering Council has devoted some energy to the study of helmets. The first two links are a bit outdated, but still interesting. The third is recent and discusses the case for not wearing a helmet.

Heads Up I

Heads Up II

Should I wear a helmet?

Kong makes a helmet (the Scarab) that is certified for both climbing and biking (and canoeing an horse riding).

Finally, the UIAA standard for helmets.

If I'm not mistaken the foam helmets (whether protected by a plastic outer shell or not) are designed to break upon impact to distribute the stress. They are designed to be a one impact helmet.

I'd much rather pay a few bucks for a helmet a few times in my life. I'm, luckily, not hit on the head that often and if it does happen I want the foam AND the plastic shell. Though I'm not sure that the suspension helmets won't do as good a job. Get the helmet you think will do the best job for whatever you are doing. If there is one thing not to skimp on this is it.

Helmets should be about protection...save the durability for something else.

brenta wrote:The British Mountaineering Council has devoted some energy to the study of helmets. The first two links are a bit outdated, but still interesting. The third is recent and discusses the case for not wearing a helmet. Heads Up I Heads Up II Should I wear a helmet? Kong makes a helmet (the Scarab) that is certified for both climbing and biking (and canoeing an horse riding). Finally, the UIAA standard for helmets.

I know this wasn't your position - just the article's, but not wearning a helmet while climbing for any of the reasons cited in that article is like the person who refuses to wear a seatbelt in a car because the buckle might jam and they'd burn to death. If you hit your head in a lead climbing fall and you don't have a helmet on, you are in big trouble (been there, I know). If you have a helmet on, it's doubtful that you will suffer any injuries at all.

If you crater from 50 feet up and your head lands on a rock first, then yes, a helmet may not help you. But if you go upside down during a fall and swing into the rock, or tumble down a slab and pop your head, you are probably going to get seriously hurt if you aren't wearing a helmet. Yet with one, you'd have just dusted yourself off and finished the route.

Arguments about not wearing a helmet are almost always specious and about vanity not real risk.

Again, I'm not directing this at you in any way, just speaking in general.

I have to agree with Jed on this. I think most climbing helmets are poorly designed to protect against much more than an impact from above. Many provide slight protection for a side impact, but that assumes that the helmet fits well enough that it won't just slide to the side and expose your temporal region. Most of the foam models don't feel secure enough on my head to make me feel that they would stay put. Only the Ecrin feels like it will stay put (on my head). I haven't seen one that gives any protection to the back of the head which is one of the main threats to lead climbers. I have seen numerous severe head injuries to lead climbers, wearing various types of helmets, that struck the occipital region of their head (lower back area of the skull).

Most helmets seem to sit way up on top of people's heads, and don't extend down the side or back. Think about what a paddling helmet looks like, or a hockey helmet. My guess is that manufacturers don't make these because they feel most climbers wouldn't wear them due to a combination of being hot and dorky-looking. It has been a long road to even get as many climbers wearing helmets as we see today. Climbers seem willing to trade "too hot" or "too heavy" for good protection from a head injury. I wonder if climbers would buy a helmet that really offered full coverage.

Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: I know this wasn't your position - just the article's, but not wearning a helmet while climbing for any of the reasons cited in that article is like the person who refuses to wear a seatbelt in a car because the buckle might jam and they'd burn to death.

The author does not take a very vocal stance in favor of helmets, but here are a few quotes:

Dan Middleton wrote: But the consensus of healthcare experts and researchers indicates that for climbers this [rotational brain injury] is not a common occurrence, and even if it was, is outweighed by the protection provided against other forms of brain and head injury.

Dan Middleton wrote:On balance, the chance of strangulation when climbing is minimal.

Dan Middleton wrote:Analysis of fatalities attended by Mountain Rescue shows that those wearing helmets generally died from injuries other than those to the head, in stark contrast to those not wearing helmets.

So, all in all, I'd say the article still supports wearing helmets. As for myself, a few weeks ago I wore my helmet from the the base of the North Couloir on Pacific Peak, all the way to the top and then down to the car. I got some puzzled looks, but I didn't fry my brain. (I'd left my hat at home...)

brenta wrote: The author does not take a very vocal stance in favor of helmets, but here are a few quotes: So, all in all, I'd say the article still supports wearing helmets. As for myself, a few weeks ago I wore my helmet from the the base of the North Couloir on Pacific Peak, all the way to the top and then down to the car. I got some puzzled looks, but I didn't fry my brain. (I'd left my hat at home...)

I didn't mean to imply that the article's conclusion was that people shouldn't wear helmets. I'm very passionate about helmets after going through my own Kubler-Ross type journey of vanity-based refusal, then injury, then denial (along the lines of the article's arguments) again based on vanity, then finally acceptance that wearing a helmet is mandatory if you are really interested in safety.

Thanks for the clarification.

Buy a super light foam helmet for cragging.

Keep the durable suspension helmet for alpine.

Kai Larson wrote:Buy a super light foam helmet for cragging. Keep the durable suspension helmet for alpine.

Everything I needed to know about foam Vs suspension in an alpine environment I learned in golf-ball sized hail on the Diamond (July 3, 1996- When the Eldo trails got washed out). In foam, I'd have been knocked unconscious and killed in short order after it disintegrated. Instead, I just about went deaf, and I had nice bruises on my shoulders and back- but didn't loose the helmet or my life.

Falling may be a different matter.

I have a 7-7/8 sized head. Even worse, its mostly oblong too. I would be a god in a more primitive culture. The point being is that no helmet fits me. I look like a penis with ears.

Should anyone know of an outfit that makes XXL sizes I'd like to know.

I could probably wear your hats, Mike. Hands down, the goofiest helmet I ever owned was a Joe Brown that looked like a motorcycle helmet somewhat. A friend of mine found that it fit him perfectly, so I just let him have it.

Tim Stich wrote:I could probably wear your hats, Mike. Hands down, the goofiest helmet I ever owned was a Joe Brown that looked like a motorcycle helmet somewhat. A friend of mine found that it fit him perfectly, so I just let him have it.

I saw one of these down at Wilderness Exchange in Denver this week. Funny - that's exactly what it looked like - a motorcycle helmet. It was remarkably light, though. I think it was being sold for $35.

Thanks guys for the thoughts. It seems that there is no right answer except " The best helmet is the helmet you actually wear."

Since I don't take sharp end without it, I'm sticking with the Ecrin. It actually find it to be very comfortable and unobtrusive. Maybe I'll get a foamy for cragging when I have some gear funds and don't want something else(like that'll happen).

Cheers and climb safe

I had an Ecrin Roc, but switched to the Elios. I like the Elios much better.

AS I understand it, the science behind the helmets is:
Soft shell helmets or foam helmets take the impact of falling better than a hard shell.
Hard shell helmets are designed to minimize the impact from above.
So, I guess which of the above do you do the most. Get in the way of falling objects or become one yourself?? I use both but feel safest in the mouintains with a hard shell.

JACK