Protein Shakes

Every time i go to the rock gym i get a pretty heavy workout on my arms and the next day they're pretty sore - so i figure as long as im repairing every time might as well drink some shakes to expedite the process. You guys think this is a waste of time and money?

Definitely not. Shakes are a fast meal and having one immediately after working out speeds recovery.

There are an infinite variety of recipes and many opinions on which protein powder to use. IMO, I don't like whey because it causes sinus problems for me. I don't like soy because it is estrogenic and hard to digest. Egg white powder causes your body to become too acidic.

Pea and rice protein are good. And hemp is great...tomorrow I am going to order 5 lbs of Manitoba Harvest Certified organic Hemp Protein Powder with Fiber. Online price is $45 but i am going to check prices at Vitamin Cottage.

A shake base can be water or milk (dairy or almond) and a frozen banana. After reading an article in Mens Health about the health benefits of pumpkin, I always add 2/3 cup of canned pumpkin to shakes. Raw sunflower seeds are good also-germinate them if you have time by soaking them for a day or two, if not put them in dry.

Use almond butter instead of peanut butter since peanuts can interfere with cartilage metabolism.

Other ingredients that might be added:

-Sweeten with raw honey
-2 teaspoons of bee pollen
-Yogurt or kefir
-cocoa powder
-or sweeten with frozen concentrated pomegranate juice (Old Orchard brand)-an incredible source of antioxidants. Antioxidants are crucial to block the damaging effects of free radicals. Heavy exercise releases free radicals.
-instead of pomegranate use acai, an even stronger source of antioxidants.
-instead of hemp powder, add two raw eggs. Use organic eggs and boil for 60 seconds. Don't use raw eggs very often since there is an enzyme in raw egg whites that blocks absorption of one of the B vitamins. Every once in a while is OK and a very satisfying shake.
-one of the green powders (algae, wheat grass, barley grass) Very healthy but detracts from the taste.
-1 gram vit c
-brewers yeast powder

Hemp powder isn't super high in protein (about 15 grams), but it is a whole food protein, east to digest, and has a relatively good balance of Omega oils. Also, the other ingredients add protein.

I usually mix a shake as a quick meal replacement. For a quickly assimilated drink, I would make it more bare bones in order to get the protein to your muscles faster, and have a regular meal later.

Experiment!

Check out David Wolfe's products, they are great to add to smoothies. I usually add the Nature's First Food.

sunfood.com/

If you're looking for protein, may I suggest:
Steak (it's delicious)
Bratwurst (far cheaper than steak, still delicious. Also high in collagen which is good for your joints)
R

tradryan wrote:If you're looking for protein, may I suggest: Steak (it's delicious) Bratwurst (far cheaper than steak, still delicious. Also high in collagen which is good for your joints) R

Good advice until the plaque that crap lines your areteries with ruptures and you pull a Tim Russert (poor guy).

Animal protein is sooooo 90s.

Rice protein is the way to go: high quality protein, virtually no fat, zero cholesterol.

Scientists can say what they want about supplements... but when I have a smoothie for breakfast with fortified protein powder, I climb really well... maybe I just feel better, so I try harder, but it is positively correlated!

I have been wanting to try hemp powder, but it is so expensive... I usually go with whey and soy, cheap. Although I do use whole hempseed sometimes. I have also heard that peanuts are bad and almonds are better, probably true, but I am a fan of peanut butter in my smoothies...

J-
Having specific post work out nutrients to help your body recover faster is certainly not a waste but it's a question of whether it's worth it to you. You may not notice much of a difference as far as recovering faster over just having a good meal once you get home, like tradryan said...good old fashioned meat is still the best protein source there is.
If you want to go all out and try doing some post work out supplementation: Protein is indeed necessary post work out in order to rebuild the tissue that was damaged during your session. However, the first thing that muscle tissue does immediately following a work out is to replenish its fuel stores. This means that the muscle is going to intake as much sugar as it can in order to synthesize glycogen for your next workout. By helping the muscles maximize the amount of glycogen they have you will get two side effects. 1) you'll have more fuel in the muscles for your next training/cragging session and 2) glycogen will also cause the muscles to hold on to more water, since virtually every chemical process in our bodies uses water in one form or another this means that having the extra water will optimize the healing process in your arms.
There are two companies I know of producing an extremely high molecular weight sugar designed for the purpose of maximizing glycogen stores in muscles. Much like runners will "carbo load" for a few weeks prior to a marathon this is like a mini carbo loading after each workout. The product is called Waxy Maize Starch and I can only remember that Prima Force is one of the companies making it.
Using the waxy maize immediately post workout, take a shake w/ you and start drinking it as you finish up your workout, and then having a good meal w/ some quality protein is a relatively low cost and effective means of maximizing the muscle recovery process.

Now if you'd like to go all out you can take your favorite form of protein isolate w/ the waxy maize. By using a protein isolate, which is basically a complex of amino acids, you're providing protein in an extremely easy to use form that the muscles will readily uptake along w/ the waxy maize. This is definitely trying to maximize the recovery process by giving your muscles every advantage, but may be overkill for the cost. Your body is going to rebuild the damaged tissue anyhow and having a good source of protein post workout will take care of that.

If you'd prefer using a high quality protein shake instead of the isolate I would absolutely suggest trying whey protein first. If you get a good whey protein you shouldn't have any problems w/ it even if you're lactose intolerant. Most of the high quality whey proteins are microfiltered which leaves very little lactose proteins in the whey. In addition many manufacturers will add an enzyme complex to the protein to help it absorb a little better and help lactose intolerant individuals tolerate the whey.

I will have to disagree w/ Kevin though. If you're looking to get the best results out of a post workout shake any plant source of protein is going to be less effective. Plants do indeed have some good proteins but we are not plants. Rebuilding muscle tissue requires a different protein profile than what you get from plant source proteins. Egg protein is alright but most people have more trouble digesting it than they do w/ whey protein. If your protein shakes give you gas or you feel bloated you can always add your favorite fiber supplement to the shake to give it some bulk and help move it through the GI a little better... plus most of us don't eat enough fiber anyhow.

The best place I've found for whey protein, waxy maize and any other supplements that would be considered more in the body building realm is "The Nutrition Company". They've got two locations, one in Westminster(303.465.6008) and one in Boulder(303.444.1677). Brian runs the Bldr location and is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to tweaking your diet for performance gains.

Just a quick thought w/ respect to the muscle soreness. If you're getting sore after every workout I hope that you're at least giving yourself adequate recovery time before hitting it again. Muscle soreness comes from swelling in the muscle tissue as a result of microtrauma to the fibers and fascia. If you're causing that much microtrauma every time and not allowing a few days of rest you may accumulate enough damage to eventually cause a true injury. If you're looking to get stronger, doing shorter more intense training sessions will serve better than going in and working to failure every session. Though it all depends on your goal and your individual physiology and I may simply be getting old and not be able to recover like I used to. I just know how much it sucks to be hurt and not able to climb, have fun, play hard.
BA

brentapgar wrote:J- like tradryan said...good old fashioned meat is still the best protein source there is.

It's possibly more convenient to get protein this way, but it is not "best" or even "better" than eating plant protein. And, after you add the cardio vascular destruction that is wrought by animal protein, then you are at a decided disadvantage by eating meat for your protein source.

Just to clarify, the difference between plant and animal protein: There are approximately 8 essential amino acids needed in human consumption, they are said to be found in animal protein in the proper ratios for absorption. Plant proteins can be paired such as peanuts and wheat, beans and rice, etc... so that the ratios are more suitable for humans. I have also heard that research is finding that they don't need to be consumed in the same meal either, but not sure.

I have heard that hemp and soy are "complete". I guess it really just depends on who you ask and how you measure it. It's not an exact science...

When I became vegetarian, I got back into weight lifting and gained 30lbs of muscle over a single summer purely on vegetables and tofu! Of course I was about 19... much easier to get gains then!

Another thing to consider is iron, if you don't eat red meat(getting blood iron), Vit C will aid with iron(non-heme) absorption.

Of course nutrition must be catered to the individual, your body will tell you what works best. Consuming too much protein should be considered bad. High carb(good carbs and fiber) diet is usually best(for healthy/active individuals).

I suggest every human to do some basic nutrition research and try to recondition your tastebuds to like healthier food!

oh... and don't forget to chew well!

Muscle Milk. The ready to drink kind is my preference and it is the same price as the powder.

James Beissel wrote:Muscle Milk. The ready to drink kind is my preference and it is the same price as the powder.

thats what ive been using (powdered), im almost out though and i think ill experiment with the hemp protein

all great information, thanks guys

Ice cream, syrup, a little milk. Yet another reason I'll never be a 5.12 climber.

In the bigger picture of diet I totally agree w/ Joseph..."I suggest every human to do some basic nutrition research". I would also add that since each person has their own unique genetic and biochemical make up that the only way to truly know what works best for you is to do some reading and then some experimenting to see what works.

As far as the plant vs animal source of protein debate. I don't know what else to say to those who believe that plant sources are at all comparable to animal sources, other than... you're pretty much wrong. The only three plant source proteins that make the FDA's list of complete protein sources are Soy, Quinoa(#'s 1 & 2)and Hemp(#3). Now I'm not saying that you can not get all the essential amino acids from eating even a strict vegan diet. I am saying that most of the literature out there on protein says that for a single food that offers a complete protein, plant based sources are inferior to animal sources. The current gold standard that the FDA uses to evaluate proteins is the Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prote…

The only plant source protein that scores similar to animal protein sources is soy. Here's a link to some info on how soy protein compares to hemp and it's not favorable.

enerex.ca/articles/soy_protein V_hemp_protein.htm

Yes I realize that "good old fashioned meat" sources of protein do also provide some cholesterol and saturated fats. If you don't want any saturated fats or cholesterol you can always use whey protein (which actually scores a 1.14 on the PDCAAS scale) or if you'd prefer simple egg whites (they have the highest PDCAAS score at 1.19). As a side note many scientists are questioning the validity of the "lipid theory of arteriosclerosis" and if cholesterol and fats play a significant role in it.
One thing that is true concerning cholesterol is the fact that it serves as the building block for all steroids produced by the body. It is also an essential component in all cell membranes. Both of which are necessary for recovering from high intensity work. One recent study from Texas A&M actually showed that an increased dietary cholesterol intake resulted in an increase in muscle mass and muscular strength after a six week strength training program.

In the end your diet should be a reflection of your performance goals and your unique needs. There's no way to find out what works best for you without doing a lot of research and a little experimenting.
cheers,
BA

Well, one thing is for sure, if you wait long enough, the researchers will reverse their positions on everything. You can adopt almost any position, then find a legitimate study to support that position.

So eat a cow, man...

Brentapgar wrote: If you're looking to get the best results out of a post workout shake any plant source of protein is going to be less effective. Plants do indeed have some good proteins but we are not plants. Rebuilding muscle tissue requires a different protein profile than what you get from plant source proteins.

Brent,

Thanks for your info. I am still researching and will talk to Brian at the Nutrition Company. Also, thanks for the info on waxy maize...I will research.

However, I disagree that it is nescessary to eat animal protein. A 2000 lb bull and an 800 lb gorilla are vegatarians. A gorilla can probably bench press a VW bug.

I tried lots of different protein powders until finally settling on Optimum Nutrition. Seems like everything loaded a good bit of fat on me but the ON hasn't done that at all. Best to consume within 30 minutes of a workout and then before you got to bed have a casein based protein shake; it's a slower burn form that will last you through the night.

Another high-protein food is Tuna. It's not good to eat it daily (could be too much mercury), but then again it's probably not good to eat too much of anything.

Also, a cheap way to make protein shakes is simply 100% whey or soy protein and cocoa powder. I think Trader Joe's soy protein is ~$13 for 2 lbs. Mix those with milk, add some splenda/sugar to sweeten, if you like. Way cheaper than the super-cool brands' pre-mixes. But then again, I'm not super-cool.

Avoid canned tuna because of the mercury levels.

Braxton, you're right, canned fish is an easy source of high protein. Instead of tuna, use canned mackerel or canned salmon.

This article is about mercury levels in fish: ift.confex.com/ift/2004/tec…

I would also avoid soy, because it is estrogenic and hard to digest. Soy isolate is worse.

I'd be curious to see what the PDCAAS is for "complementary" plant proteins. When say lentils and brown rice are mixed... so as to complement each others amino acid ratios.

I have also heard about the estrogenic nature of soy. Mainly in regards to concerns about feeding it to young girls. I don't think(haven't seen any research) an extra 20g of soy protein powder a day will cause you to stop producing sperm and grow breasts. If anyone has references to papers on this I'd be interested to read them.

I think the final word on protein should be that for recreational atheletes it doesn't matter too much. Most of us probably do not have to worry too much about what we supplement with soy, hemp, whey, egg, fish... as long as you get sufficient nutrition to rebuild quickly. The major concern should be getting a good dietary ratio. As long as you get at least 0.8g of protein per kg of body weight, preferably 1.2 to 1.4 if you are pretty active, you'll be fine. I'd worry less about protein intake than overall diet composition.

All I know is that I have made insane gains on a vegetarian diet(for 12 years), maybe I am lucky with a good metabolism though. Soy protein powder works just fine! I like it better than whey actually. It seems to do better for me. Of course I am not vegan, I drink milk(no eggs).

Don't forget about all the extra foreign crude oil in your meat! But that's another topic! That card is always fun to play... just having a laugh! ;P

Just experiment and see what works for you! Try chocolate hemp milk, that stuff is excellent!

Kevin Friesen wrote:However, I disagree that it is nescessary to eat animal protein. A 2000 lb bull and an 800 lb gorilla are vegatarians. A gorilla can probably bench press a VW bug.

This is a silly and misguided analogy. Humans do not have the same stomachs as gorillas or bulls; species' requirements for nutrition are not identical by any stretch of the imagination. In addition, bovine stomachs especially are FAR, FAR different than humans'.

A gorilla's ability to bench press whatever depends faaaar less on what it eats than the fact that it's body is built QUITE differently from humans and it's biomechanics and it's mass distribution are QUITE different. Also, an ant, for god's sake, can lift many, many times it's own body weight. I suppose we should eat what the ant eats, right??

To the OP: why don't you buy one of Nancy Clark's books? She is a registered dietitician and a Board Certified Specialist in Sports Dietetics who has worked with tons of athletes over her career. I read one of her colums recently where she says that drinking a glass of milk is basically as good as any pre-designed shake you can buy--and a whole lot cheaper too.

Anyway, buy one of her books and forget the Internet experts.

Here are two questions (see last two posed) which are exactly the same as your question: active.com/nutrition/Articl…

And one more from her regarding "what protein should I eat? how much? when? what? why?" xterraplanet.com/training/d…

Joseph-
From what I've read the way the PDCAAS works is that you can simply add the scores for the protein sources that you're interested in to come up w/ the PDCAAS value for when those proteins are used in conjunction.

You also make an excellent point as far as the bigger picture of diet. Protein intake is only one part of recovery. Not only does your body need the raw materials, such as protein and micronutrients, to rebuild the damage done to tissues during training it also needs the actual energy/calories to do the physical work of rebuilding the tissue structures themselves. (An interesting estimation: it takes about 3500 calories of energy for the human body to build 1 pound of muscle tissue.) So even if you're intaking plenty of raw materials you're body is still going to have to use part of those resources or energy from somewhere else to get the calories to repair the tissue damaged during climbing.

I'm going off on a tangent: It would be really interesting to see someone train a gorilla to train like a body builder. As far as I know humans are the only animal out there that willingly subjects themselves to extreme levels of both physical and psychological stress in the name of fun, fitness or performance. Animals in the wild work on the premise of conserving as much of their energy and physical resources as possible so that there are reserves for times of illness or when food is scarce. The extreme stress levels created during training/climbing create a unique set of biochemical side effects, all of which must be taken into account if a person is going to create an optimum balance between training/climbing and recovering in order to get to the next performance level.

Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion and thought provoking ideas.
cheers,
BA