Aiding overhangs.

Hi.

I'm new to aid, so this is probably a fairly obvious question, but if anyone can help with the technique, I'd appreciate it.

During the weekend I found myself below a small (4 foot) roof which I wanted to aid past. I got a good placement just above the roof and stepped into my aiders (I had just freed up to that point). I had a daisy chain and a quick clip.

My problem - I needed to step up the ladders in order to place the next piece. What is the technique to stop your feet pinging forward and your head tipping backward while you are trying to ascend the ladders?

:-)

Thanks for any help, Graeme.

Buy an adjustable daisy.

When you get the piece above the roof, clip the adjustable daisy to it and yard on it which will bring your waist up to the level of the lip of the roof. Hopefully now you can place another piece above the roof and it will be smooth sailing.

YMMV,
Brad

So if I read that right, the problem is that your feet and aiders are dangling below the roof (zero contant with the rock surface), making you tip over if you get too high on the piece (probably maxing out at the third step?).

No real technique I know of. With nothing to lever off you just have to get another piece in a bit higher. 18-24" is about the best you can hope for. Even then, as you move up the next aider you'll grind the your shins into the lip, and if you are single aiders you'll have a hell of a time getting the first foot to be above the lip into the aider, as you're weight will be pasting the aider against the face. Just part of the game.

A daisy will help (or you can just clip your harness into the piece with a biner or fifi hook), but there's really nothing to compensate for the fact that your feet don't have anything to press against. Just thrash and dangle.

Moof - right on, exactly the problem.

Fat Dad - I actually did what you suggested. I could certainly get up but it wasn't the easiest! (Although I appear to have a talent for thrashing and dangling).

Thanks for the advice, Brad, I'll consider looking at the adjustable aiders - what would you recommend?

Guys, it was actually my first real aid lead. Actually quite an interesting experience - I've done the course and this year I want to start practicing. I was very interested to read so many 'free climbers' consider 'aid climbers' to be just gear pullers with no skill. I don't personally care what people say (no one aids at my local crag) but I have been rather happy to find its awful hard work and really fun. Pretty scary standing on those pieces too! Took a lot of guts and some extra care and skill making placements :-)

Cheers, Graeme.

GraemeK wrote: Brad, I'll consider looking at the adjustable aiders - what would you recommend?

I'd go with the metolius. They are not so easy to get the hang of right out of the box but once you do the difference in weight to the yates is by far worth it. I like mine alot and really only took about 1 pitch to really get the release down.
Cheers and good luck.

Graeme,

Do what is referred to as a rest step. tuch the supporting foot behind/or under the upper thigh of your free leg. This allows you to lean back easily

GraemeK wrote:I was very interested to read so many 'free climbers' consider 'aid climbers' to be just gear pullers with no skill. I don't personally care what people say (no one aids at my local crag) but I have been rather happy to find its awful hard work and really fun. Pretty scary standing on those pieces too! Took a lot of guts and some extra care and skill making placements :-) Cheers, Graeme.

Aid climbing is a bit of an dying art form, but it's still required on most big walls and towers to some degree. I view aid climbing as part of the overall skill set that a climber should have to consider themselves to have acheived a "mastery" of the sport. When I say that, I don't mean you are the best at everything. I mean you have a three dimensional perspective on the sport, it's history, and all its manifestations. I think all climbers should have at least some exposure to aid climbing, free climbing, ice climbing, and general mountaineering. It doesn't mean you aren't a "real climber" if you haven't done all of it, but I would imagine that the folks that do gain a sense of understanding and respect for the sport that more specialized climbers may not fully attain.

Graeme,

Tom has a good suggestion if you aren't already "backstepping" in your aiders. I also find it easier to use two pairs of aiders on all but the most straight forward aid pitches.

I disagree with SAL about the Metolious adjustable daisies. I think the Yates ones with the big buckle are way better for two reasons. (though they are heavier)

1. It's a lot easier to extend it under load.

2. It's strength rating is substantially higher. I think the Metolious ones are weak. They are only rated to 300lbs where the Yates are rated to 1500lbs.

To further expand on what NSFOD was saying, i think that it is important for climbers to explore the different aspects of climbing to not only see what they like and appreciate about each, but also that the different aspects helps the others.

For example (and probably stating the obvious), sport climbing helps trad climbing, by focusing on raw technique and frequent falling. trad climbing focuses the climber on lead head and proper planning and analysis of fall zones, gear placements, etc, instead of blindly trusting a bolt placement or understanding why sport routes were bolted a certain way. bouldering focuses on the raw movement, and gets you sick strong to negotiate hard cruxes of sport or trad routes. crack climbing allows you to think outside the box to give you more tricks to utilize elsewhere. aiding focuses on the gear placement, and what you can and cant trust on trad lead. and sport techniques also give the bodymemory finesse in dealing with certain aid techniques. some of the best aid climbers i have seen use both free and aid techniques at the same time.

in other words, SOMETIMES to get better at something, sometimes you have to reinforce something else. as with other life problems, instead of attacking the problem head on, it is quite possible you can look in an opposite direction and train on other techniques and come back to it. all these aspects puts tools into your toolbag to employ at your will.

long story short (too late), to answer your question, to 'gracefully' surrmount a roof on aid, it takes body awareness, balance and core strength. this comes from practice. practice at it directly and indirectly. think about how you would free climb over a roof. if you find feet in the roof, shift body position to compensate, possibly a high step involved etc. now back in your aiders, move the aiders (feet) where YOU want them to go, and adjust your balance accordingly. the fixed point (your placement) is what you can leverage from, and learn to trust it. it takes a while to learn that feeling of pulling out or up on a piece of gear while you are weighting it... counterintuitive, but as long as you are weighting it, it wont go any where. hard to explain i guess. but if you are "flagged" into the roof with your aiders, continue to high step in them while pulling out on the piece until you can get your center of gravity over your feet and balance... and reach for that next placement.

regarding the issue of doing a little bit of all the aspects of climbing, if you find what you like, you can learn enough of the other stuff to "get by". i do not particularly like aiding or bouldering for example, but i can do it and practice it every now and then. some hard core wall climbers do not free climb as hard but can do it. some boulderers can flash V10 but can not hand jam a 5.8 handcrack. whatever. the point is, while its good to be well-rounded, sometimes a jack of all trades is a master of none.

and of course, (if i must put it another cliche) practice makes perfect. if you do it all the time, you will get good at it and it will "make sense". this is why some think offwidth is hard, or slab climbing is hard, etc.

and back to the point, often times aid climbing is not about the "correct" or "graceful" way to do it, but rather just gettin'er dun... "hook or crook". no matter how graceful and efficient i try to be on aid, i still end up feeling its hard and thuggish. BUT, again, i dont do it enough. i have seen some master aid climbers make it look easy. but when its all said and done, its still aid.

:)

Don't push out with your foot... pull it up and under you, then stand while locking off with the bicep.
Its the one time in aid climbing you have to have some power.

Darren hit on an obvious but not often spoken issue that you probably realized after your little adventure. If you're going to do a lot of aid, you want alot of core strength and a strong back.

Also, as far as adjustable aiders or daisies, I don't know anyone who's spent alot of time on walls who use either. That could just be what I've observed, but it's been observed from several trips up the Captain and summers living in Camp 4.

Fat Dad wrote:Darren hit on an obvious but not often spoken issue that you probably realized after your little adventure. If you're going to do a lot of aid, you want alot of core strength and a strong back. Also, as far as adjustable aiders or daisies, I don't know anyone who's spent alot of time on walls who use either. That could just be what I've observed, but it's been observed from several trips up the Captain and summers living in Camp 4.

I noticed it was quite some work - is that just my inefficient aid technique or is it really only for tough people! Does that mean the bulkier climber is okay with aid (I'm 170lb at 5.9 and thought that might be a bit heavy) :-) ?

I watched clean walls and saw that Ron Olevsky didn't use daisies and it was interesting to listen to the back-commentary on that subject. I'm pretty keen on improving with their use (in fact I was playing around on Saturday with one daisy and three aiders - I got quite a good system down for it - nice to work out those wrinkles).

I have an overhang at home so will try to use the rest step to see how that works...

GraemeK wrote: I noticed it was quite some work - is that just my inefficient aid technique or is it really only for tough people! Does that mean the bulkier climber is okay with aid (I'm 170lb at 5.9 and thought that might be a bit heavy) :-) ?

its all relative. i have known good wall climbers and aid climbers over 200 lbs. i suppose there could be height advantages too, as with all aspects of climbing.

but i would imagine that a climber's weight is more of a factor in "hard" aid... where body-weight-only placements are relative. besides, you are also carrying a sh*t-ton of gear which is heavy. and imagine the impact force of a heavier climber onto a sketchy piece like a copperhead. yikes!

some of it is just plain hard work. and some gets easier with better technique. and the fact that you are wanting to learn about it, putting in the hard work, and asking questions... THAT makes you tough!

Graeme,

I should clarify that I don't clip daisies to my aiders. I use only one adjustable daisy and I use it as a fifi.

Having daisies attached to each aider causes too much cluster IMO. (there are exceptions to this)

Brad Brandewie wrote:Graeme, I should clarify that I don't clip daisies to my aiders. I use only one adjustable daisy and I use it as a fifi. Having daisies attached to each aider causes too much cluster IMO. (there are exceptions to this)

Oh that's interesting (and not in the books)! I guess you figure out a good system that works for yourself. I was keen on using daisies because I didn't want to drop my aiders (I'm like that) and also because I figured it was good progression to have that down before I find what works for me. Thanks for that!

GraemeK wrote: I noticed it was quite some work - is that just my inefficient aid technique or is it really only for tough people! Does that mean the bulkier climber is okay with aid (I'm 170lb at 5.9 and thought that might be a bit heavy) :-) ? I watched clean walls and saw that Ron Olevsky didn't use daisies and it was interesting to listen to the back-commentary on that subject. I'm pretty keen on improving with their use (in fact I was playing around on Saturday with one daisy and three aiders - I got quite a good system down for it - nice to work out those wrinkles). I have an overhang at home so will try to use the rest step to see how that works...

I think it's just easier to use two pairs of aiders, that way you're not constantly clipping a second aider onto your high piece. The fewer steps the better.

Also, I just use a daisy for two main purposes: to clip into the piece I'm testing to avoid losing the piece and the aiders attached to them and for high stepping on a steep wall. I usually don't use it to clip in at my waist. I use a fifi or biner for that.

I also agree that two daisies just makes for a clusterf***. Besides, if you fall onto a piece that's clipped into your daisy, it'll shock load it. Much better to clip the rope through and let your lead rope absorb the load.

GraemeK wrote:What is the technique to stop your feet pinging forward and your head tipping backward while you are trying to ascend the ladders?

Check out the old dads:



Way I learned it with standard aiders is like Frost is doing it on the cover of Robbin's Basic Rockcraft. Plant both feet in a separate stirrup, then take one and bend your knee and stuck your foot up under your butt. Works pretty ok.



Another technique might be "T stacking" which you can see in Jeff Lowe's Clean Aid video.

Russian Aiders and adjustable daisies (make mine Yates too) make steep aid a snap, though.

Cheers.

GraemeK wrote: I have an overhang at home so will try to use the rest step to see how that works...

Huh?

Fat Dad wrote: Huh?

Thanks for the info and pictures Brian.

Fat Dad - my bud is an architect and thought it would be funny to design an overhang in the garage. Wife wasn't best pleased but its pretty cool. She wanted a deck like all the others ;-)

speaking of overhangs, was looking at wall'ing the rusty dagger or greg & george's line. any thoughts?