climbing with avalanche gear

So I have been climbing for a few years now and have done my share of routes up in the park and elsewhere where I have ventured into avalanche terrain in the process. I have always tried to use good judgment, check avalanche forecasts, minimize exposure, etc., but I have never carried avalanche gear with me on a climb.

My question is: what percentage of climbers use avy gear? And by avy gear I mean beacon, probe, and shovel at a minimum.

I have not in the past but I intend to start this season. Mostly, I bought a beacon for spring couloir climbs and semi-technical winter mountaineering, not for rock or ice climbing. Climbing partners of mine have been caught in two different slides in as many years. One was a late-season wet slide on the face of Mt. Toll where snow conditions had gone to hell on the descent. The other was a spring ascent of a minor couloir in RMNP. In both cases everyone survived and injuries were not too bad. Fortunately, I wasn't on either trip.

I would think those items would be a small increase in added weight for a pretty good size security blanket ya know? i mean shovel, beacn, and probe arent gonna weigh you down enough to sacrifice NOT bringing them.

Jus my .02 though im always a fan of erroring on the overprotected side. I got caught in a pretty fubared up situation a while back on Mt. Princeton and ever since then I always try and make sure all my bases are covered.

Seth

We're faced with more naturals; maybe a trigger in the compression zone. Honestly, I don't think we are in a position to assess the true danger in a bottom & up route, maybe on the decent or approach. Overall, I think climbers are in a bad position as far as risk assessment; even if they are knowledgable (which is kinda mis-leading because most caught are knowledgable at assessment).

I haven't taken any avy gear. I would think though that without the avalung, all you'd be doing is a recovery in a burial. I don't see avy gear being as much use as ski mountaineering. Really, you'd need support personnel at the base at the ready. Figure you & your partner (maybe a 3rd) are committed on the route -- you all are probably going down in a slide - trauma is probably gonna be a factor. If you don't all go down, then anyone not caught is still committed.

Maybe the decent or approach, avy gear would help. I think if the terrain goes out on the route, that's pretty much that. So my decision, is more the localized report, any risk of a slide; I'd say I'll go do something else - like the Ice Park.

It's not the weight so much as the price that was the stumbling block for me. I'm not a backcountry skier and generally avoid avy terrain like the plague. Only after these two incidents where non-skiers were caught in slides did I realize the need for proper avy gear. Shovels I already own in plenty. The $230 for a beacon and additional $50 for a probe was a big chunk of cash, but a good deal cheaper than a funeral.

It would seem that most climbers do not carry avvy gear, whereas most BC skiers/riders do. Skiers seem to be more aware of the risk because we are basically seeking out avvy terrain as it also happens to be the most fun to ride on. I don't think climbers realize how much time they spend in avvy terrain because its usually not the main objective.

I never head into the BC without avvy gear in the winter... I also never climb in the winter, because I'd rather be skiing/riding.

Price is an issue however, if you check out Bent Gate or other Sponsor sites sometimes they do introductory avy gear packages which contain an avilung, beacon, probe, and shovel for a kinda special price i suppose.

Just my .02

Check Bentgate as they have a great package deal and they're one of our sponsors. I'm sure Windy X would do the same...

Please support our sponsors before spending money at places like mgear, etc...

Going into avalanche territory without beacons, shovels, probes, and proper training and partners is asking for serious trouble. Avalanches can strike with lightning speed and without warning.

I lived, skied, and worked directly in avalanche territory for several seasons, and have had first-hand experience with them. Skiers have a limited advantage over climbers in these zones, because they can sometimes maneuver out of the way. Climbers, on the other hand, are basically sitting ducks if they are in the wrong spot, which is very easy to do without proper training and awareness.

Let me stress a point about gear. It is useless unless you and your partners understand how to use it and are familiar with avi rescue techniques. Finding a person in a few acres of snowpack can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, even when you know what you are doing. And the first fifteen minutes or so are critical, because, after that, your search will likely become recovery work. It is no joke.

My suggestion is that you take an avalanche course before heading out into these conditions, and make sure that your partners do the same. Your life could depend on it.

Here are a few sources for the Colorado:

Colorado Mountain School

Colorado Division of Emergency Management

Mountain Rescue

KC

Ken Cangi wrote:Let me stress a point about gear. It is useless unless you and your partners understand how to use it and are familiar with avi rescue techniques. Finding a person in a few acres of snowpack can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, even when you know what you are doing. And the first fifteen minutes or so are critical, because, after that, your search will likely become recovery work. It is no joke. My suggestion is that you take an avalanche course before heading out into these conditions, and make sure that your partners do the same. Your life could depend on it. KC

Ken beat me to it by 2 minutes. If you're going to get avy gear and head into avalanche terrain, absolutely make sure you know how to use your gear. Buying it is a waste of money if you can't use it properly.

I was one of the crew that was caught in the avalanche on Otis that Charles mentioned above. Luckily, the couloir was very rocky and I was protected behind a huge boulder as the avy went over my head and all around me. Only one guy in our group of five was swept down the mountain and luckily ended up on top of the slide. That was his second ride in two years.

Ironically, we were about to end the climb because of poor conditions once up into the couloir when the avy hit us. One thing I think is hard to figure, and it was mentioned above, is that by doing a snow analysis or whatever you call it down low, that by no means would have told us that the snow way above us was bad. Down low on the runout slope/apron, the snow conditions were pretty good. We figured a cornice that was out of sight broke.

I started carrying avy gear long before I ever began backcountry skiing. I have been hit by a slide while climbing a mountain and thankfully was able to get out of the direct path before it fanned out, so no major digging was needed.

True on technical ice, if you get hit by a major slide, a shovel and a probe aren't likely to be of any use. But I don't know of many places where you can go from flat ground to vertical. You're going to be crossing avy terrain.

I also suggest taking a class on avy safety. If anything, learning how to shovel efficently could mean valuable time to the buried party. Also it is good to get buried and have your partners find you; it give you perspective on how claustrophobic it really is and how helpless you really are.

My experience has been such that very few climbers carry avy gear with them while strictly mountaineering or climbing. The big difference between a BC skier and a climber is that there is no direct connection while in the danger area. As a skier you are almost never roped up with your partner quite converse to climbing. I would imagine that the line of thinking is that while climbing you are roped with your partner and your safety from avalanches comes from your knowledge in determining the safety of the slope and it's risk of sliding. Obviously if you think it is likely to slide then you absolutely do not attempt it. If you determine that you think it's good to go and conditions change during that time you still maintain avalanche safety by protecting your climb. If you are fixed to the mountain and the slope slides hopefully your protection keeps you from being buried. Scary to say the least but you are to some extent using your climbing pro as avy gear. Under the circumstance that you are climbing with your partner roped up and the slope slides both of you will most likely be buried. In the event that only one of you is buried then your partner can use the rope that both of you are tied into to find his/her buddy, effectively your avy gear.

If you are sending coliours un-roped with your buddies then you might consider bringing avy gear but at the same time if the slope slides is it more likely that all of you would be buried vs. one or a couple.

jfox wrote:One thing I think is hard to figure, and it was mentioned above, is that by doing a snow analysis or whatever you call it down low, that by no means would have told us that the snow way above us was bad. Down low on the runout slope/apron, the snow conditions were pretty good. We figured a cornice that was out of sight broke.

I'll second that. I was out that same day and in the same area. My (limited) experience at snow analysis didn't ring any alarm bells that day and I was really surprised to hear about the slide. People were going up and down Dragons Tooth/Tail all day which has a similar aspect to the route being climbed.

Another point that needs to be emphasized is knowing when to turn around. I didn't turn around on the Nokhu Crags two years ago and it was very nearly very ugly. Especially for those of us that live here and can litterally come back the next day/week, erring on the side of caution is the best idea.

We are getting some good varied responses. "What do you mean don't carry equipment?" -- it's because I think most of our climbing assessment of terrain is more than likely a go/no go before we even think about entering the danger zone.

I also think that overlooking the possible danger in approach terrain in lieu of the climb is a misconception. It's more that our position is terrible to ascertain the true danger, especially if nothing has slid in the area.

How many avy savy have walked away from a snow pit more confused than not?

I think from a technical climbing standpoint, avy gear is just impractical; this is certainly one of the scariest aspects I have ever dealt with, absolutely, a sitting duck.

I agree with all the previous posts about taking an avalanche education course. The knowledge and skills that you can gain in a good course by a qualified provider are invaluable. If you're going to spend the time and money, make sure you take an AIARE Level 1 course. (American Institute for Avalanche Research and Education.)

In the front range, you can't go wrong with the Colorado Mountain School:

totalclimbing.com

Between 1/4 and 1/3 of avalanche fatalities are due to trauma sustained during the incident. So even with a beacon/probe/shovel and knowledgeable partners, some people won't make it.

The bottom line when it comes to avalanche safety is avoidance.

Have fun and be safe out there.

Matt

As I said before - you & your partner are committed on a technical route; any slide and that's pretty much the end. Say the team doesn't get pulled off, where one does (you) & one doesn't (your partner).

What is your partner gonna do? By the time they are able to reach the debris zone (provided they still have the gear to do it -- by gear I mean equipment to get off the technical terrain), it's probably too late unless the taken climber was able to get an avalung in their mouth (while getting the crap beat out of them).

Sure - those response times really drive the point across for backcountry skiiers, they can do something; but climbing partners are basically stuck in a position of recovery caused from a natural slide, the most difficult to assess, and with a high probability of trauma -- this is really a no win deal for a climber.

Nate Oakes wrote:If you're going to get avy gear and head into avalanche terrain, absolutely make sure you know how to use your gear. Buying it is a waste of money if you can't use it properly.

Really, the only "avy gear" you need is that thing what sits on top of your shoulders. Uhh, not your hat.

Your head.

Avoiding an avalanche is primary. None of that gear helps avoid an avalanche. And, you're all kiddin' yourselfs if you think it will save you. Check the stat's. Many folks die from trauma.

Climbers are especially prone to avalanches when we venture out into avalanche prone terrain (I know: duh). Ice climbing, alpine climbing, gullies, etc. When you're on a climb below a steep coulior, ice climbing, and its starting to rain, and it snowed 18 inches of cold powder the day before, it doesn't matter what kind of fancy beeper you have or if you have a shovel and/or a probe. You're in the wrong place. (Based on a real accident, btw).

I just don't buy into the whole "safety net" avy gear thing. Avoiding avalanches is way more important than buying a piece of gear that provides a very minimal margin of safety, and really, may provide a false sense of security which on the type of avy terrain climbers find themselves exposed to, could be really really bad.

How's that go? "Dance like no one's watching?" Well, venture into avy terrain like you've got no gear to save you. Use your head.

Its an interesting thought, though. I backcountry ski a bunch, and, my avy beeper and shovel are part of that kit. But, for ice climbing, gully climbing, snow slogging up peaks, etc, I rarely if ever take avy specific gear. Only when I'm skiing.

Hmmm...

Keep in mind also along with what Brian stated -- these stats that get presented are based more on skiier burial where you can race the clock against CO2 & hypothermia. The stats on climbers have got to be far more grim as trauma is more the factor.

At lunch the other day, some of us were discussing the relationship of technical climbing to avalanche; and climbers play it smart, the percentages of us getting caught is really low, almost non-existent with the sharing of info; certainly the internet & sharing of beta to credit here. Maybe also, we understand the acceptance of this kind of risk; buddy rescue is just not feasible -- the risk is too high for a climb even if the danger could be manageable for a skiier, so we do something else or take the chance knowing we have accepted the high risk.

One other thing we talked about was the lung, it works; I can't imagine going skiing without it.

Thanks for all of the responses so far. I have taken an awareness course before and would like to take a full-blown Level 1 course at some point, more because of my interest in BC skiing than climbing.

I think some very interesting points have been raised, especially by Brian, whom I mostly agree with.

When I think of the routes I've done, most of the avalanche terrain is on the approach to the technical part of the climb (Kieners, Dreamweaver, even Vail). In these situations, I could see some benefit to carrying avy gear. A few of the climbs have avalanche terrain located above that could potentially sweep you off of the technical terrain. All mixed up for example. Even if you had gear, it would be difficult to assess what lies above and avy gear may not prevent you from getting killed.

My intent with this post was really just to see what most people do out of curiosity. It sounds like many people carry avy gear with them, but the majority probably does not.

Carrying an avy kit on an alpine climb doesn't make much sense to me so I've never done it. Nor do I know anybody that ever has, to be honest. Better to use good judgment and spend the money on a WFR course.