Drilling question

Don't anybody panic here, I have no intention of placing bolts any where in the near future. I am aware that putting bolts on someone elses route or in places where trad pro is readily available are no nos among other things.

I read somewhere that power drilling is like 100 times faster than drilling by hand. I've put a few construction anchors into concrete and masonry and I recall it taking maybe 30-45 secs. to drill a hole but I'm guessing it is harder in actual rock unless its sandstone.

So then it would take at least an hour or more to hand drill a bolt hole. My question is whether anyone drills bolt holes by hand anymore.

Hey John what kind of hammer do you use. Is it just a small sledge or one of those outrageously expensive piton hammers. And what is the procedure as far as striking and twisting.

John Langston wrote: I'd suggest practicing on a nearby sidewalk (no need to mar up perfectly nice rocks).

That reminds me of a great Monty Python sketch where they show a couple of guys "climbing" a street. The camera angle is sideways at first so it looks like they are going vertical, finally the climber misses a hold and "falls" down the street. ;)

Edit: I suppose you have to remove the bit and blow out the hole every so often. How many holes can a typical bit drill before it wears out?

We are using the newest lithium ion powered bosch and it takes 15-25 seconds depending on the bit. We use 2 3/4 inch bolts in good rock and drill the hole deep in case we need to move them later. No need to blow out the hole with a power drill until you are done. Hand drills do a pretty good job of getting the dust out but cleaning a few times is not a bad idea.

As noted above, it really depends on the rock into which you're drilling. With a good stance I've drilled 2.75" holes into fine-grained CA granite in as little as 10 minutes... but this might have been a frenetic effort.

Drilling from a *climbing* stance, however, will take much longer, unless you are Thor swinging Mjollnir. Holding that sledge above your shoulder makes you tire quick!

Eric,

What kind of bolts and hangers do you use. How about anchor set-ups?

Thats good mike, do you work for hilti by any chance heh heh, and wouldnt it just be easier to form up and pour some concrete stairs on those tough spots?

JmH wrote:Eric, wouldnt it just be easier to form up and pour some concrete stairs on those tough spots?

Jim, we talked, albiet briefly, about this in yesterday's newspaper.

Plenty of people still hand-drill even in granite, and certainly in sandstone. On lead I've drilled a 1/2 x 3" hole in 5 minutes in soft sandstone (white rock at Red Rocks), and a 3/8 x 2.25" hole in 6 minutes in Tuolumne granite - and I know old school guys who drill even faster. I've done 1/2 x 3" holes in Joshua Tree in as little as 10 minutes or so, although most rock there is a bit better. In the toughest Valley granite it can take 15 minutes or more, and from what I've heard, some quartzite is just insanely hard to hand drill. Most folks take 15-20 minutes for a 3/8 x 2.25" in granite. In granite it's much quicker and easier to drill 1/4" buttonheads and then just pull them and redrill the hole to 3/8" on rappel after you finished the FA - but 1/4" buttonheads require more experience to place well, and they don't work in soft rock (and typically crater/fracture the rock surface in limestone).

Even where power drills are legal, if you're doing a long new route where you may not need many bolts, or you're just replacing a couple, hand drills are super light. Also for expeditions, remote walls in cold weather, etc - where a heavy power drill and cold-sensitive battery are just not going to make it into the gear pile.

And don't forget to pick a good spot and drill a good hole, i.e. one that's perpendicular to the surrounding rock.

I found this recent addition to an old, local crag just yesterday! Both bolts look worse in person, btw.

Adam Stackhouse wrote: Jim, we talked, albiet briefly, about this in yesterday's newspaper.

Holy cowbell, I was only kidding!;)

Who makes the best hand drill Petzl, Fixe....

As far as the picture of anchors goes, they are not ideal, but they will work just fine. The hardware is so much stronger than any force that will be applied the fact that they are not perfectly perpendicular is not a safety issue for me.

Fixe Hangers and stainless wedge anchors 2.75 inches long. I also get some longer ones 3 3/4 inches for getting through thin veneers or thin flakes to good rock if necessary.

I agree, they will probably be just fine as long as the idiot that placed them didn't apply too much torque. Just plain shoddy work as far as I'm concerned, not to mention that the anchor is unnecessary.

Back on topic: I like my Petzl hand drill although it pinches the shit outta my hand if I don't have a glove. It seems like a 2" x 3/8" hole takes me about 15 minutes.

must be nice to drill in sandstone! i've got the petzel and it has taken me an hour for 3/8 x 3-1/2 in granite (anchor bolt). Put 2 of those in and you're pretty much sick of hammering!

as john noted above, we once played 'dualing hand drills' (kind of like dualing banjos, but slightly different) on top of a hunk of granite. he had a tiny goofy little hammer, i had a light framing hammer. we did kind of an experiment, where he hammered real quickly with fairly light strokes, and i hammered more heavily with lower frequency. he totally smoked me. i assume our bits were probably fairly comparable as we had both estimated that they each had about a dozen previous holes. one big advantage of the lighter hammering is that it doesn't displace as much material with each stroke, which leads to less binding up of the drill.

a couple things that i have learned. i try to let the drill 'bounce' between strokes, but i am very careful to try to limit this to the axial direction. the bounce helps get the displaced material out, and also provides a bit of time to turn the drill. if you are sloppy about this, particularly in sandstone you will wallow out the hole. no good. also, i have seen where people keep applying pressure to the bit as they are turning it. its like they think they are 'carving' the hole out. needless to say, this will dull the bit in a heartbeat. chisel, don't carve. also, i have a little blow tube which i use fairly frequently to blow the dust out of the hole.

an equivalent hole in sandstone takes about 10 to 20 percent of the time it takes in granite, which is quicker than really hard rock like traprock, or hard metamorphic rock.

as far as john's suggestion to practice on sidewalks, i highly disagree. the wall of a parking garage will give you much better experience in a vertically oriented position, which Seth correctly noted is substantially more strenuous.

Thanks everyone for the good info. I have only seen two brands of drill and that is the Petzl and the Fixe. I am encouaged to hear that Eric recommends Fixe hangers and I assume also their wedge bolts. They seem like a pretty neat company to me. With that in mind, I thought they would make a nice drill too. The difference I see between that and the Petzl is that the Petzl doesnt require a wrench to tighten up the bit.

Might I suggest stainless industrial wedge bolts as an option (vs fixe) that will save you money. 3/8 X 2.75" is good for most situations. These companies have stringent quality control and their product is used widely. I prefer Powers but there are others.

Consider Powers Power (sleeve) bolts as an alternative (3/8 X 2.25") - they are more expensive but stronger in soft rock and replacable. Can be found on mcmaster.com for a reasonable price in stainless. Also check out renob climbing's site for their selection.

I have noticed a minute on a hand drill takes a second on a power drill. IE - 30 minutes for a 3/8 X 2.25" deep hole by hand takes 30 seconds by power. I have the fancy BD hammer. Anything heavier will not help you out because the frequency of strikes is paramount as mentioned before. If you hit the bit too hard you will break the carbide insert.

The Petzl hand drill has a nice quick release system for the bits but is a little small to hold. Never tried anything else.

I have a question. How do you prevent getting a blister on your left hand while hand drilling? Wearing gloves does not seem to help.

PS - you must use a hand drill in national parks such as Yosemite or Joshua Tree.

Ah is that what you meant about the wobbly v. fixed bits? So the bits are not snug in the Petzl. Hmm that doesnt sound too inviting.

Nothing new to add. But if I post something all the new comments become visable. weird. Ahhhhhh

jonathan knight wrote:I agree, they will probably be just fine as long as the idiot that placed them didn't apply too much torque. Just plain shoddy work as far as I'm concerned, not to mention that the anchor is unnecessary. Back on topic: I like my Petzl hand drill although it pinches the shit outta my hand if I don't have a glove. It seems like a 2" x 3/8" hole takes me about 15 minutes.

JK - where was that anchor?

mschlocker wrote:Might I suggest stainless industrial wedge bolts as an option (vs fixe) that will save you money. 3/8 X 2.75" is good for most situations. These companies have stringent quality control and their product is used widely.

Actually, they have virtually no "quality control", IMHO. My bet is that they don't do any testing on any of the finished product they produce. Fixe probably does? Anyhoo, the Fixe are designed for climbing. And maybe tested as such?

If you have data from any "quality control" testing or such on Powers, Hilti, whoever, I'd be curious to see it. My bet is you don't. These are industrial use type fasteners and that industry just doesn't require "stringent quality control".

mschlocker wrote:Can be found on mcmaster.com for a reasonable price in stainless.

I've ordered from mcmaster at around 5 bucks per for the shortest 3/8" powerbolt (and very quick delivery).

Also have tried:

fastenmsc.com/

They were over a buck cheaper, and tossed in a 10 dollar gas card too. Pretty fast delivery. I'd recommend either distributor.

Yeah, I notice that hand drilling varies a bunch with rock type. The harder the rock, the more a heavy hammer seems to work better. I think all hand drilling benefits from rapid blows, and, with some rock types, its faster with a lighter hammer due to faster cycle time between blows.

In Zion, up high, I've drilled a 4" deep hole in around 3 minutes. Rock was so soft, could have done it without a hammer pretty easily (eeek). Down lower, took a good 20 minutes to get a 1/2" hole 5" deep or so.

My favorite drill is an older Rawl with the rubber holder and a sharp 3/8" bit. I like the Petzl drill too, though, but, its not near as fast but you can change drills fast, its light, compact, and you can get the super spendy (but handy) 4" drill bits for it. They can bite your hand, though, with that collet pinching. If I hold it just right, doesn't seem to do that. Annoying when it does though!

Cheers.

Petzls have vertical "play" (wobble makes it sound like there's side-to-side play), and this helps clear dust from the hole, but it doesn't make much difference. The handle can pinch your hand, there are several ways to deal with this but I just grab the drill with first/second finger and thumb and avoid grabbing with the pinky & palm near the pinky. You can also just do a quick wrap with cliimbing tape, or wear gloves.

The Hurricane drills work nicely, but are not available anymore, and they're twice the weight of the Petzl and require wrenches to change bits. The Pika drills loosen up super easily, but work great for large hands (may not be available anymore). Never even heard of the Fixe drill (just saw it on their website), kind of funny since I just picked up tons of hangers straight from FixeUSA (they're now in Bishop too). Guess I need to check one out.

Fixe sells various stud/wedge bolts: their own 10mm stud bolts, their newer 3/8" stud bolts, and Powers 3/8" stud bolts (the short stainless ones in their cheap deal last year for instance).

The ASCA strongly recommends that no one use ANY wedge bolts - since they can not be removed in the future. If you must use them, please use only stainless (stainless Powers stud bolts cost the same or less than non-stainless 5-piece bolts). The better options are 5-piece bolts (now called Powers Power-bolts) and Fixe Triplex bolts.

A lightweight hammer with frequent hits works just as well or better than a heavy hammer, unless the rock is very soft - in that case a heavy hammer can work a lot faster. Hitting hard in good rock can break bits quickly.

Metal drilling bits work faster than SDS in most rock, but they require non-SDS drill holders (Hurricanes with special collets depending on bit size), and the bits must be custom sharpened and they dull very quickly. If you sharpen SDS bits, they break a lot faster (of course all the SDS bit manufacturers have now made wavy edges to keep people from sharpening bits at all).

As far as the blister on the drill holding hand - I've never been able to avoid it, but you can reduce it by not turning too fast and not gripping the drill too hard.