Bolts

Seeing as there is a fear of aliens right now, I thought I might try to put fear into sport climbers too!

Bolts break when they are over torqued. If you don't know who installed the bolts, and at what torque, then you are putting your life at risk. I am jesting, but I was reminded yesterday that this is actually true.

I was climbing sandstone, placing bolts, some of the sandstone was soft, some hard, I was tired, not paying a lot of attention, probably a little frightened, when after placing a bolt (brand new red powers) and not quite knowing what type of sandstone to expect on this placement, I over torqued the bolt unknowingly, when I weighted the bolt, it broke and I fell.

The fact is that if you over torque bolts, they are weakened. However, I am not a bolt expert. So sport climbers beware!

Dude that's crazy! Hope the fall was allright

Heres a question. Whats the best source to find proper torque for various bolts and rock. I run across loose bolts on occasion but knowing very little about bolt placement and such I'm hesitant to screw with them. Obviously placing bolts would give a much better understanding but to be honest I don't like bolts much and am not interested in developing sport routes.

Joshua Blake wrote:Heres a question. Whats the best source to find proper torque for various bolts and rock. I run across loose bolts on occasion but knowing very little about bolt placement and such I'm hesitant to screw with them. Obviously placing bolts would give a much better understanding but to be honest I don't like bolts much and am not interested in developing sport routes.

Go to the bolt manufacturer's website. They have torque specs listed for the bolts they make.

For example, the Powers Bolts technical specs list the tightening torque for their stainless-steel 3/8" bolts as 10-12 ft-lbs; and for their stainless-steel 1/2" bolts as 20-25 ft-lbs. These specs differ from those for their carbon steel bolts: the 3/8" carbon-steel bolts have a tightening torque of 20-25 ft-lbs., and the 1/2" carbon-steel bolts have a tightening torque of 35-45 ft-lbs.

Fixe 12mm Triplex bolts have a tightening torque of 44 ft-lbs.

For Thunderstud wedge anchors, the 3/8" require a torque of 25-30 ft-lbs., and the 1/2" require a torque of 50-60 ft-lbs.

For the Hilti Kwik Bolt 3: the 3/8" require 20 ft-lbs.; the 1/2" require 40 ft-lbs.
us.hilti.com/data/techlib/d…(224-242).pdf

Thus you have to know:

• The bolt manufacturer and bolt type
• The bolt diameter
• And sometimes the bolt composition (carbon steel or stainless)

in order to determine the proper tightening torque.

Not an easy task if you didn't place the bolt yourself.

Bolt manufacturers will often give a rule of thumb for approximate torque: for Powers bolts, 3 to 5 turns past finger tight; for Thunderstud bolts, 3 or 4 turns. This is probably the best you can do without a torque wrench.

Powers Fasteners Datasheet

This .pdf has specs on the Power-Bolt (formerly Rawl bolt) including maximum torque values. If you don't have a torque wrench handy, they say to spin the bolt 3-5 turns past finger tight.

More food for thought:
Most of the time when people refer to a 3/8" Powers/Rawl bolt, its actually a 5/16"; a 3/8" hole had to be drilled. The old RedHead bolt with the threaded stud can sometimes be levered out of the hole by overtightening. Wobbling the drill (typical of trying to use a dull bit) can cause the hole to exceed the proper bore diameter, compromising the placement. Bolts are rated in relation to being placed in 2500 to 5000 lb. test concrete. What psi is the stone they're in? China has been sending over inferior, counterfeit bolts for years. A cheap bastard may have chosen to use "drop-in" anchors, it'd be hard to tell from above. I once had an entire block (microwave sized) with a bolt on it slide out almost into my lap while following a route at Rifle, it ended up on the cave floor. Alot of bolts were placed back in the 80's, thats -uh- 20 years ago.

If you are known as the person who installed the bolts, and someone got hurt or died due to bolt failure; what would prevent your ass from being sued?

Still- golfers get hit by lightning, skiers hit trees, bikers get flattened, inactive people get heart disease, the guy in the cubicle next to you is just one bad day away from bringing the Uzi to work, someday Tom Hanson may discover the largest mass gathering of rattlers ever known, what the hell..........

Haaapy Monday!

this is why spinners dont bother me too much

I don't think a lawsuit could be won if a bolt fails and it was deemed (thru testing) that its weakness was due to over-torque. The reason I say this is due to the unknown: did someone come along and tinker with the bolt following its placement? I've (and I'm sure most have) seen bolts sans head and hanger that appear to have been broken via over-torque (the remaining stud spirals a bit and has an obvious point where the bolt became completely detached - whereas a break from downward pressure will leave a downward bend in the remaing stud, and will appear "stretched").
I say this because it would seem as though someone came along and overtorqued the bolt at soem point (following its placement).
Although I admit that this thread has me a bit worried. . . should I go remove all of my friggin bolts?!

Non-liability Notice!!!
If Anyone at anytime shall come across a route which has bolts placed on it, for use as anchoring and/or protection from falling, and it is known that the bolts placed were done so via the hands of cameron, it is not recommended that these bolts be trusted, as no true testing, nor torque-wrenching was used during their installation. Let it also be known that the bolt holes were drilled by hand. Finally, let it be known that cameron has ZERO certifications and/or testing documents that show his competence in the art of bolt setting.
If you dare climb his routes (not at all recommended) then you will be placing your personal safety within the hands of God and your own cautiousness.
All routes placed by cameron were done so for his personal use only!

I'll place this notice on the few routes I have submitted to MP.com, and will demand that any guidebook authors use a similar notice if my name is to be attached.

Happy Falling!!

John Hegyes wrote:Powers Fasteners Datasheet you don't have a torque wrench handy, they say to spin the bolt 3-5 turns past finger tight.

That rule of thumb is a bit scary and whacky -- as torque isn't proportional to number of turns!

Out of curiosity -- how many folks setting bolts do use a torque wrench?

I have set a couple bolts with a torque wrench, however, the recommended 25 ft-lbs for a 3/8"(5/16") Powers bolt seems much too high for climbing applications. I was only barely able to exert 25 ft-lbs with my 8" wrench, and that was borderline painful.

The pre-load of the bolt is only used to keep the bolt from coming loose during cyclic loading. In my opinion, the lowest possible torque that will prevent the bolt from loosening is the ideal.

It is very easy, and even more scary, to break a bolt with torque. I have broken ~10yo Rawl/Powers with less than 10 ft-lbs. Because of this, I would never recommend tightening old bolts past the snug-stage. Spinning bolts can be dangerous, but over-torqued borderline-breaking bolts is very dangerous.

Does anyone have any testing information on Stress Corrosion Cracking for different brand bolts? Does less torque (less stress) help prevent SCC?

Why aren't SS glue-ins more widely used on popular routes?

I hear you on that one Casey, why aren't glue-ins standard practice? they are solid and pretty stupid proof, bolter only has to remember to drill the right diameter hole, at the right angle and depth and then blow it out.

cameron wrote: Non-liability Notice!!! If Anyone at anytime shall come across a route which has bolts placed on it, for use as anchoring and/or protection from falling, and it is known that the bolts placed were done so via the hands of cameron, it is not recommended that these bolts be trusted, as no true testing, nor torque-wrenching was used during their installation. Let it also be known that the bolt holes were drilled by hand. Finally, let it be known that cameron has ZERO certifications and/or testing documents that show his competence in the art of bolt setting. If you dare climb his routes (not at all recommended) then you will be placing your personal safety within the hands of God and your own cautiousness.

Well said. It is climbing after all...

In regards to glue-ins. I can't begin to imagine what a pain in the ass and mess it would be to carry around the epoxy and place it while climbing. I would have glue all over everything. I can't keep glue/epoxy off of me when I am working in the garage, let alone standing tall in aiders.

And... in regard to the epoxy, how long would it take to hold outward pressure on the bolt? Too long I imagine.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:Hilti Kwik bolts seem to be the best I have used so far.

You absolutely cannot beat Hilti. The gold standard with pretty much anything they produce. They ought to be mandated as the preferred unit for all new and retrofit routes.

I don't know much about bolting, but the crew at Muir Valley at the Red River Gorge have done quite a bit of research on bolting routes in the sandstone of the Red. Rick Weber has put together a bolting guide (PDF) for Muir Valley that looks pretty complete to me. There was also a post on a new kind of bolts at redriverclimbing.com that looked interesting.

When placing bolts I've come to use the rule of finger: I tighten to snugness and then some with a couple fingers. When just starting to bolt, a friend used a ratchet/socket and immediately overtorqued a 1/2" bolt and snapped it off. That was too easy to use. I have yet to have a bolt break from overtorquing from this simple habit.

I like Rawls. They are cost effective and I live in a fairly dry climate so they seem to last. It seems to me that the person paying for em will choose whatever they like. I have cheap friends and some that are willing to spend money. It seems that is the criteria most likely to be used when putting routes up.

John J. Glime wrote:In regards to glue-ins. I can't begin to imagine what a pain in the ass and mess it would be to carry around the epoxy and place it while climbing. I would have glue all over everything. I can't keep glue/epoxy off of me when I am working in the garage, let alone standing tall in aiders. And... in regard to the epoxy, how long would it take to hold outward pressure on the bolt? Too long I imagine.

I guess I feel that the extra time, effort and mess would be worth it in the long run, like 20-50 years. Kind of like quality over quantity. I purposefully chose the words "popular routes" because I think they are not ideal for every route. I certainly wouldn't place them on lead for obvious reasons (including when standing in aiders), but I certainly would rebolt a well travelled route with them. They would certainly make great anchors (critical), even if the rest of the route was expansion bolts.

Disclaimer: I have never placed a glue-in. However, I LOVE clipping them. They never spin. They will not have hidden rust issues. Stress Corrosion Cracking is eliminated. And they are pretty strong, to put it lightly. I do not sell the bolts and I do not own stock in any bolt hardware companies ...

I have an 18" torque wrench, so I went out to my chain link fence to see what 20 ft-lbs feels like. It was trivial with the torque wrench. When I tried the same with the 6" wrench I tighten bolts with, it was all I could do to attain 20 ft-lbs. JG, what size wench (er wrench) are you using?

Agreed, generating more than 20-25 foot pounds is hard to do w/ a 6-8" wrench. I have been using Powers 1/2 x 2.75 stainless for medium/hard rock. The torque on the 3/8 stainless version is very low (10 foot pounds) and not recommended by the ASCA.

Greg Hand wrote:I have an 18" torque wrench, so I went out to my chain link fence to see what 20 ft-lbs feels like. It was trivial with the torque wrench. When I tried the same with the 6" wrench I tighten bolts with, it was all I could do to attain 20 ft-lbs. JG, what size wench (er wrench) are you using?

It is maybe 8in.

I wasn't pulling down on it with all of my strength or anything. I was just trying to make sure it was snug/tight in the hole. If you have ever placed a stud, you know that the threaded end of the bolt comes out of the hole as you tighten it up. Sometimes in soft sandstone, the bolt keeps coming out an inch or more and it never tightens up, other times it tightens up right away. Obviously I tightened it too much. But in my mind at the time I was just trying to get it nice and snug.

For the bolt I broke, the wrench I used was 8". The bolt was ~10 years old but only had some surface rust, and it failed with an estimated less than 10 ft-lbs (recommended torque is 20-25 ft-lbs).

It is very easy to over torque bolts, which is why I recommend *not* going up to the manufacturer's torque, but just tight enough so the bolt doesn't come loose.

It seems like the SS bolts are much more susceptible to over-torquing than a standard zinc-plated steel bolt given the dramatic differences in the manufactures torque between the two different types of metal. The SS is apparently more brittle. In dry climates, I am not always convinced that SS is always better/necessary...

In regards to strength, Powers lists both SS and Zinc-plated bolts as having identical strengths (sheer and pullout). I always thought Grade 5 Steel was stronger than 304 stainless -- per Powers they are the same?