Gear Review - Black Diamond ATC Guide

I have owned the atc, reverso, gi gi, and now an atc guide. For belying on 10 mm ropes the atc feeds the best. I bought a reverso because i was belaying lots of followers and i thought it would take less energy with a reverso. Little did i know, it takes tons of energy to pull the rope through in guide mode. Often i was more pumped from belaying than climbing. The only way i found around this (besides using 8.5mm ropes) is to hang my rack or sneakers off of the biner that the rope runs through. This pulls the biner away from the belay device allowing the rope to run though with minimal energy. Maybe a coil spring (like on the old stich plates) would solve the problem, but more likely create others.
Anyway, my new atc guide really sucks for belaying a leader. Too often the rope pulls the device into the biner and locks up the rope. I can pull the rope through the device, but with lots of effort. if the climber needed a quick feed for a despate clip I'd feel more comfortable with an 11.5 mm rope in a gri gri. About 20 -30 times per belay i pull the device away from the biner so the rope will feed smoothly. The plus is that i am positive i can hold big falls with the atc guide. It definitly locks the rope off. This problem is also the same in auto-lock mode. I have been somewhat successful hanging gear from the belay biner to pull it away from the device. This might affect the hands free lock-off feature. Maybe the rack or item hanging off the biner could snag on an edge and prevent the biner from pinching against the device.
Basically none are perfect. The atc feeds wonderfully, but wears quickly and gets a sharp edge. I've gone through 5. The gi gi is the best feeding auto lock i've used, though still not great, and it is more junk to carry. The reverso feeds well for belaying the leader, but is hard to lock off and difficult to pull rope through in guide mode. The atc guide looks like it will last forever, or at least till something better comes out. I think i may go back to the atc and gi gi combination.
Maybe a petzel pear biner would help the rope lock-up problem? I'm using a large trapazoidal shaped petzel.
Is anyone else finding it difficult to feed rope through the atc guide? any ideas?

zack d wrote:Is anyone else finding it difficult to feed rope through the atc guide? any ideas?

I've never had the problems with my ATC Guide that you describe; the reason may be that I mostly use skinny doubles (8.6?) when I'm on multi-pitch climbs. Even when I belay on a single, it's usually a 9.8mm; I've never even owned a rope as fat as your 11.5. So rope thickness may be your root problem.

zack d wrote:Maybe a petzel pear biner would help the rope lock-up problem? I'm using a large trapazoidal shaped petzel.

That could be part of the problem too. The times when I've had to work a little to feed rope in guide mode, I've just clipped in a second biner and everything smoothed out. I bet that would help with your fat rope.

JL

Gang,
When using a device in guide mode it really helps to use a smooth round stock carabiner. There are only 2 that I know of the Petzl Attache and the Trango Mini HMS. The forged shapes in most 'biners will make it tough to pull rope through.

JL, are you advocating doubling up on the blocking carabiners to make it run smoother? Dude, you're playing with fire there, not to mention that you're playing with your second's life.. I know of no manufacturer, including us, that would say this is safe, let alone appropriate.
Mal

Malcolm,
the reverso looks to be the same as a stich plate.
Am I correct in that theory?

Linda,
I'm not sure what you mean. A Reverso and a Stitch plate are waaaaay different. Are referring to how a Stitch plate can be made to feed smoother by adding a second 'biner into the rope loop?" This is a common trick with many tube style devices and it works well with all of the symmetrical devices I've tried. Don't know how it works with the Reverso, though. Further to my post, the mechanics of what is going in in the regular belay/rappel configuration vs. what's going in with an autoblock are not even remotely the same. Just because doubling up carabiners with a regular belay device makes it feed smoother while still affording a solid lock off does not imply that it will do either with an autoblock. It may work and it may not. I haven't tested it.
Mal

Malcolm Daly wrote:JL, are you advocating doubling up on the blocking carabiners to make it run smoother? Dude, you're playing with fire there, not to mention that you're playing with your second's life.. I know of no manufacturer, including us, that would say this is safe, let alone appropriate. Mal

Mal -- I'm surprised to hear this is dangerous; I haven't had to do it in quite a while (since I'm mostly using doubles), and if you say it's dangerous, I won't use this technique any more. I do know of a number of people who've used two biners without any issues, and the times I've done this, it didn't in any way compromise the operation of the device in guide mode.

Again, I'm willing to take your word for it, but can you explain why this is dangerous?

JL

saxfiend, I don't know if it's dangerous or not. That's why I've saying he's playing with fire. I know of no tests where someone's actually pulled an autoblock to failure with 2 blocking 'biners. I know we haven't...

It may work. And it may not.

Mal

Hey Mal-

My partner's reverso was rigged up correctly in the incident I described above. His pulling down on the brake strand to arrest my fall rotated the device enough that the sharp edge on the load strand side of the device was in more direct contact with the rope and easily sharp enough to cut it. I 've heard folks sometimes file down that razor sharp edge after it forms, but I don't particularly like climbing with a knife on my harness or a knife attached to my climbing rope!

Wild story Eli. I'm going to have to fiddle around a bit with one to see how that could happen. I have seen several cut ropes from people's mis-threaded Reversos but that's just a matter of not paying attention.

Further to your post way up-thread that you haven't had to lower anyone from an autobloc, you better polish up those techniques if you go climbing with me. I've had to be lowered twice in the last 18 months and both times it's been epic even though the belayer swore proficiency.

Mal--I still like the munter--Daly

Malcolm Daly wrote:Further to your post way up-thread that you haven't had to lower anyone from an autobloc, you better polish up those techniques if you go climbing with me. I've had to be lowered twice in the last 18 months and both times it's been epic even though the belayer swore proficiency.

Mal,

Your belayer should have been using your own Trango Cinch. It's my preferred device for belaying a second off the anchor. Not strictly an autoblock, since the instructions say to keep control of the brake end of the rope at all times:



To lower the climber, attach another carabiner to the anchor and redirect the brake-end of the rope:



Simple, slick, and works well.

Note: The instructions say that you should NOT belay a leader directly off the anchor; only a second. Belay a leader with the Cinch attached to the belay loop on your harness.

Malcolm Daly wrote: The B-52 was not designed with autoblocking in mind. It just turned out that you could do it with the B-52. Unless you're a guide I think it's a highly overrated technique.

Malcolm, first of all I want to convey my deep respect for you as a climber and a gear manufacturer. Passionate and driven people like you make the sport better in every way.

...but autoblocking as an overrated technique for non-guides?? I disagree strongly. I'm not a guide. I'm just an average climber trying to get the most out of every climbing day in a safe manner. I've used an autoblocking device to bring up seconds for years. I used to climb with an ATC and a Gri-Gri just so I could use the technique. It's efficient, it's very effective and it really helps get you one step ahead in rescue situations. In fact, I started using the technique just after my wife attended a self-rescue class with a highly respected climbing instructor.

We were at a climbing shop in Estes a few weeks ago after climbing at Lumpy. I used my ATC Guide that day and my partner was interested in getting an autoblocking device after I told him how much I liked mine. The proprietor of the shop tried to talk us into a B-52 but it appeared to both of us that autoblocking with the B-52 was not intended as part of the original design but included in the instructions for the device as an afterthought. If the "wart" loop were still on the device I would have agreed with the proprietor and maybe even tried one out myself. After reading your comments, I know it's safe and I know that it is full strength, but from a climber/engineer/customer perspective, and as your comments attest, the B-52 does not look like it was designed for autoblocking.

oh... and I agree with you that the "wart" is ugly, both on the ATC and the B-52. But it's a belay device!! Who cares?!

I guess a wart will always offend my sense of aesthetics. Notwithstanding her current situation can you imagine what her public draw would be if she looked like this?

Joking aside, the ways I've seen the autoblock being used combined with the cavilier attitudes people have about how easy it is to lower someone, tell me that it's only a matter of time before there's someone hanging below the Rosy roof locked into an autoblock that the belayer has no ability to release. I've been somewhat stranded, hanging on the rope waiting to be lowered, twice in the last year by belayers who SWORE they knew exactly what they were doing.

So what's so bad about the Munter that people are chasing autoblocking like lemmings? Don't tell me that it's because you can take your hand off the rope. I don't want the belayer to take their hand off the rope, ever. Two climbers at one? You can do the same with Munters and be able to easily bring in rope on one and lower out on the other at the same time.

Mal - I say the autoblocking is just easier working with either 1 or 2 seconds & doesn't twist the rope.

I dig the munter, too - but if one second hangs, it's hard to keep managing the other climber. I guess I could set up friction hitches to back up the brake hand, but I've not yet done it; or just tie in both to the same strand using a butterfly at a shortened interval.

I dunno, I'd like to keep the autoblock as an option, I think it's cleaner when keeping the climbers on independent strands.

I've practiced & practiced & practiced using the reverso with a second fully on it; I've got the pulley down so slick, it's hard to beat me on the buddy evac systems; course, this one is easy. The hard one is picking off my f'n leader that's a dead elephant.

I love to keep the AB as an option, too, and I love having the emergency ascender option as well. That's why I like my B-52: it can do everything and it has a clear complexion.
Mal

BTW, when running munters for 2 secoinds, use 2 HMS at slightly different extensions. Works like a charm.

I finally borrowed my partner's atc guide, and what can i say ... we got down from the crag and i ran to the climbing store and got one. This is the first belay/rap doodad i've ever used that i really like (in my closet you'll find a sticht plate, figure 8, bachli seilbremse, original atc, trango jaws, b-52, and god knows what else). This is the only thing that's provided plenty of friction on skinny ropes without sacrificing smoothness or ability to work with normal ropes (haven't tried fat ones).

I WANTED to love my B-52. I still love its light weight, sleek lines, and elegant simplicity. In contrast, the Guide looks like something forged in a fire pit by a caveman. Its weight suggests stone age origins too ... 50% more than the B-52.

But the first time down on a pair of skinny half ropes, using my autoblock for backup (rather than added friction, to help me hang on for dear life) was a revelation. I'm on the big side for climbers (190) but that should be within the working range of any device, I'd think. The B-52's claims of providing increased friction on skinny ropes seem utterly fictional. My partner (180 lbs) wanted to kill me after he rapped on it with the skinny doubles.

For what it's worth, I like the reverso even less. It autoblocks fine, but provides so little friction on medium to skinny ropes that I won't even use it.

I find the Guide easier to use in autoblock mode than others I've tried. Not sure yet how big an improvement the little ring is for releasing. I'll have to hang someone from the ceiling and play with it. I do appreciate being able to use just one biner to hang it with double ropes. On paper that seemed like a minor deal with the B52, but in practice I found it annoying. It added time at most belays, since I usually climb with a pretty minimalist setup. Having to poach biners from the rack to find two same-sized ones is one extra thing I don't want to think about.

AND ... in defense of autoblocks in general: I think they're overrated for use by guides, but are brilliant for use with experienced partners. I'd rather use a munter hitch (or 2) if i thought there was much chance of having to lower someone. The autoblock comes into its own when you're tring to move fast on multipitch climbs. If you both have one, you can fly. It's also the only way to go if you have a party of 3.

I wish there was a way to fuse the performance of the Guide with with the minimalism and light weight of the B52. But until that happens, I'll eat my wheaties and hoist this thing up with me.

zack d wrote: Is anyone else finding it difficult to feed rope through the atc guide? any ideas?

I was having trouble using my ATC Guide especially with two 10.2 ropes beyaing up two different climbers at once. Turns out that a huge part of the reason I was having trouble was that I had old-ish ropes, I just got some new ropes couple weekends ago and they work awesome!

My Guide is showing some wear after most a season of use. The teeth are noticeably worn. The leader side has also gone from round to straight, and is getting a little edge. But all gear gets worn down. For rappelling on skinny ropes, belaying on 10.3 rope, and bringing up a second with hands free for taking pictures, it rocks! I'll definitely get another.

Rob Dillon, how did you get a Neutrino in the release hole? I've been fiddling with it, and all that makes it in is the nose of the biner. A CAMP Nano just barely makes it in.

Hi Zack,

[Begin - partial quote from Zack - I can't get the quote function to work]

"..... Anyway, my new atc guide really sucks for belaying a leader. Too often the rope pulls the device into the biner and locks up the rope. I can pull the rope through the device, but with lots of effort. if the climber needed a quick feed for a despate clip I'd feel more comfortable with an 11.5 mm rope in a gri gri. About 20 -30 times per belay i pull the device away from the biner so the rope will feed smoothly .........Is anyone else finding it difficult to feed rope through the atc guide? any ideas?"

[End - partial quote from Zack.]

I also had similar problems with my ATC Guide - on a new but broken in 10.2mm rope this Summer. I felt that belaying my good buddy with the inability to make quick feeds to be real bad Karma and not so good for his head either.

I did not experience this with my ATC-XP on the same rope. It was because I liked the ATC-XP so much that I picked up the ATC Guide for either myself or my wife - depending on the situation.

Well, I went back to the ATC-XP which works very smoothly with this 10.2mm rope.

Perhaps it's the added mass of the Guide version which causes it to drop down and bind up? I haven't held the two versions side by side, nor have I pulled out my calipers to measure the spacing and other critical dimensions on the two variants of this device.

Flash forward to my recent purchase of a pair of 8.1mm PMI Verglas ropes. These ropes are "wicked slick" for the first couple hundred feet of climbing and scared the living daylights out both of us. After these first couple hundred feet of climbing, they lost their "sheen", and I think we're going to love them.

For my first rappel on these ropes last Saturday, I decided to use my ATC-XP in friction mode and it was more than enough to the point of making me nervous - with a stick/slip action. We were rapping off of bolts, but it was not the kind of smoothness that I like to impart on any protection that my life depends on. I'll play with rapping off of the low friction side of the ATC-XP next.

I decided to pick up a Reversino this week, but have yet try it. I'll report back.

I have a couple of questions about the "V" slots on both the XP and the Guide versions of the ATC. From my sticky rappel experience with the ATC-XP and the 8.1mm Verglas doubles, it would appear that any insecurity about them holding a leader fall with these ropes is imaginary - that the dynamic of the rope getting "sucked" down into the grooves is fine with the average 8.1mm rope.

I realize that BD reports you can use the ATC-XP and Guide with as thin as a 7.7mm pair, but then again, people used to consider a hip belay to be adequate too.

I also have a question about the Reverso/Reversiono.

Petzel recommends that you always use them with a directional anchor - whether:

• belaying the leader - diagram 2 on page 2 of their instructions
• belaying the second - diagram 4 on page 3 of their instructions

Link to Reversino Literature (warning - 1.42 meg PDF file) .

While it's not a bad idea to do this (and in the case of belaying the leader, this will at a minimum be their first piece), I'm wondering why Petzl goes out of their way to specify this.

Is it out of a sense of general good practice, or rather because of the possibility of this thing getting positioned so that the rope is subject to one of its sharp edges?

I'm thinking that both variants of the ATC as well as the B-52's are superior devices. At worst, I have more Christmas tree ornaments, and the Reversino does have some red in it ;-)

Does this mean I have to put up a Christmas tree this December?

Cheers,
Thom

I just bought the ATC Guide this summer and used it for the first time while guiding with thicker ropes and was surprised at how poorly it fed. We got rained out and went into the gym and the fat, stiff gym cords barely worked there was so much friction. It works great with newer 10.5 or thinner ropes, though. But for 11mm or older 10.5 that have become thicker with use I wouldn't recommend using the ATC Guide.