To Stopper or Knot?

Here's a thought worth pondering: Are stopper knots worth their application?

Many publications say to tie a triple fisherman (would that be more of a triple overhand?) into each end of the rope to prevent a climber from rappelling off of the end of the rope(s).

Is this application worth the endeavor? Sure, they will stop the descent but why not rely more on a friction hitch with its position below your rap device to stop your descent? It works and is really user-friendly (Also, a point of reference is the idea of coaxial use from JHMG).

How many have gotten into a mini-epic with rope cutting to a full-on benighted weather gear-leaving "this-climb-sucks" epic because the frickin knot got stuck in a crack and couldn't be retrieved? In the S. Platte, the Cyn Pin takes all it is offered, and my own experience on Devils Tower was enough to sour me on this application, which was previously also encountered while rapping in Eldo. Enough is enough I say.

Well, what say you then? Are we gonna die up here or what?

The most recent R&I has a column on this subject, and they come out with the "knot the ends of your ropes" recommendation. However few people do this, in my experience. And every time I've knotted the ends, they invariably get stuck in a crack.

I've also noticed that with ropes getting thinner over the years, going off the end of the rope due to not enough friction can be a problem. I have been caught off guard a few times, when I am used to the friction of my old fuzzy 10.5, and I will be zipping down my partner's brand new 8mm twins trying to slow down.

So what is the solution? I don't believe one can rely on a friction hitch or other device to stop you going off the end of the rope. I don't think you'd be aware of the fact if and when it occurred. Having the ends uneven is a sneaky problem that can be deadly. Knotting the ends seems the only sure solution, but they always get stuck and few people do this, in my experience.

Rapping is dangerous, and I don't think one should ever treat it too casually. Bicolor ropes are worth the extra cost. Be sure to think about how much friction you'll be getting before jumping on rappel. I don't think there is any miracle cure for making raps safe and easy. You can always use knots, but then you'll be getting your ropes stuck.

George Bell wrote:I don't believe one can rely on a friction hitch or other device to stop you going off the end of the rope.

See this year's ANAM and Jim R's accident in Sinks, for example.

When I think I need a knot in the ends of my rap lines, I put a figure eight on a bite instead. I like being able to clip in to something if need be.

But, mostly, I rarely put knots in the ends of my rappel lines. Usually, if I'm that worried, I'll clip a bite of each rope to my harness and rappel with the ropes attached to me. Can be a pain, but, if its windy, dark, etc, I'd rather have all the rope with me, and/or loaded with my weight and above me. Stuff sacks, a pack, rope bucket all make feeding mucho easier...

Interesting ideas being tossed around here. I like your idea Brian, and that system can't take longer than untangling the other clusters created by rope tossing. Anyways havn't tried it before but will this weekend. Cheers.

Brian in SLC wrote: See this year's ANAM and Jim R's accident in Sinks, for example.

(within the context of friction hitch use; as quoted above in George's comment -- apologies, I don't know how to quote a quote)

I respectfully disagree with this review of the assessment as not in context as provided by JHMG. The issue was not that the friction hitch failed (this was inconclusive in the report); the issue was the configuration of the system which brought to light something not previously addressed, this being coaxial vs non-coaxial.

Mark Nelson wrote:The issue was not that the friction hitch failed (this was inconclusive in the report); the issue was the configuration of the system which brought to light something not previously addressed, this being coaxial vs non-coaxial.

Not sure what you mean by coaxial. Too close to the rappel device and didn't lock up, due to raising of the leg or something to that effect? Analysis in the ANAM was pretty interesting. Not sure if it was the same as JHMG. Is that one out there somewhere?

Makes me wonder, though, how effective some of these cord based rappel back ups really are.

On high angle, sketchy rappels, especially with any weight attached to me, I much prefer a Gri Gri and an ATC rigged above it, and rig to rap single off the fat rope.

Back to the friction hitch, when you rig it below the rappel device, the chance that it would save you from going off one end of a rope, versus just rapping directly off the end of the rope (for whatever reason), is, like George mentioned, probably slim to none, IMHO.

Worse might be rigging a rappel back up friction hitch that you think might work...and expecting it to...then have it fail. Different situation though...

Cheers,

Brian in SLC wrote: Not sure what you mean by coaxial. Too close to the rappel device and didn't lock up, due to raising of the leg or something to that effect? Analysis in the ANAM was pretty interesting. Not sure if it was the same as JHMG. Is that one out there somewhere?

Yes, Brian, I stuck it with discussion on the Reverso & rope diameters (look at the last 3 posts of that thread):
mountainproject.com/v/climb…

I had thoughts about making an independent post thread, but that discussion had looked into similar topics. Also, I believe Jackson Hole Mtn Guides was the source group that provided the analysis & report for this incident as described in Accidents in N American Mtn'eering.

Another idea similar to Brian's figure-8-on-a-bight idea: if you're going to tie a knot in the end of your rope, tie it about six feet from the end. If you're not paying attention or out of control and end up with the knot wedged in your rappel device, it's better to have enough rope still below the device that you can do something with.

That's a good point Charles. I always tie my stopper knots a couple of feet from the end. The prospect of the knots wedged right up to the ATC on a free-hanging rappel with no tail to work with is one that I'd rather avoid. The thought of having to thrutch through a series of one-arm pullups in order to eek a little slack through the device is pretty scary.

I'm sort of surprised that no manufacturer has been able to come up with a rappel backup device or an auto-locking rappel device (aside from the Petzl caving stuff; don't they have an auto-locking rack?). Something along the lines of a double-rope Grigri that could double as a single-rope belay device would be pretty interesting.

Charles Danforth wrote:it's better to have enough rope still below the device that you can do something with.

Just looking at further explaination of this.

Couldn't you just take a sling or cord & kleimheist/prusik/bachman up (or better yet, jumar - fixed single rope would be advisable though; I guess you could counter yourself, but by the time you rigged, a simple sling would have done the trick faster) irregardless of how much rope you have below a stopper knot?

What can you do with rope below a weighted stopper knot? You still need to unweight the knot.

This is an idea that's similar to Brians. Instead of clipping a bite in the end of the rope (still tie a knot in the end of your rope) and then to your harness, you can use the saddlebag. So you coil your rope on each end after the rope is thread through the anchors. AFter that take two of your shoulder length slings (24") and girth hitch each coil. You want have a coil on each side of you. The only thing you have to pay attention to is which way the rope is feeding out. So with that in mind, give it a try, be safe.

Sean

Rappelling is consider the single most dangerous aspect of climbing. Some 85-90% of all climbing deaths happen during rappeling. With that said I always pay the most attention to detail so as not to make an error. I prefer to tie a figure eight on each end as it seems to prevent major hang ups although they still happen. Maybe the triple overhand or fisherman's is better as it's a little more streamlined and less suceptable to get caught. More than sliding off the rope I worry more about the anchors I descend upon. Old pitons, slings, nuts generally scare the shit out me but sometimes there aren't many other options. The best advice I think is that if something doesn't look lock stock don't be a cheap ass and throw some gear away. You know you find booty all the time, start a collection of found gear and use it as back ups on skeptical rap anchors. Someone else will get to use them too and you'll live another day to buy some more. My 2 Cents.

Jeff Barnow wrote:Rappelling is consider the single most dangerous aspect of climbing. Some 85-90% of all climbing deaths happen during rappeling.

I don't think the accident data out there supports that. See the ACC and AAC ANAM data, especially compiled in the back.

Certainly high, but, not 85 to 90%.

Seems like 40% or so, but, can't recall off the top of my head.

Stopper knots on many multi-pitch routes in Red Rock. I'd say HELL NO!! Makes me cringe just thinking about it. I've had my share of stuck ropes, so I can only imagine how many more epics I would have if I used stopper knots BUT I would have many more stories for M.P. if I used them ; ).
Anyway....I've seen way too many rope remnants deep inside of cracks in Red Rock for me to use stopper knots. I do use a back up on my rappel, or throw an extra biner on my rap device for extra friction if I don't feel like using a back-up. I'm extremely attentive when rappelling, and watch for the ends of the rope.

Brian, I think maybe better to say that those incidents that did occur were all preventable, irregardless of the fatal percentages??

Gig, the big free waller speaks (or is that big free faller? since you're ok). I can't imagine how much of an epic it would be to rap a wall with a partial rope, there must be gear galore when something like this happens at Red Rock.

Yes, Mark, lots of Booty in Red Rock. ; )
Local Vegas climbers are all pirates at heart, anyway.

Mark Nelson wrote:Brian, I think maybe better to say that those incidents that did occur were all preventable, irregardless of the fatal percentages??

Debatable on some level. All accidents are preventable if you don't get out and climb...!

Interesting to go case by case and look at root cause, though. Usually pilot error of some kind, it seems. Every once in a while, though, you get freak weather, rock fall, etc that contributes.

Probably the fatal rappel error percentages are much lower, like maybe in the 10 to 15% range, given all climbing accidents especially considering glacier/ice/alpine. But, I think its useful to know what the "heavy hitters" are so folks know where to place more safety ephasis.

As a friend says, prior to rappelling, "double check, triple check".

Cheers!

Mark Nelson wrote: What can you do with rope below a weighted stopper knot? You still need to unweight the knot.

Tie a loop and stand in it. Or just wrap it around your foot and stand it in. Easier than fishing out your prussiks, ascenders, or whatnot. Depending on circumstances, you may need to break them out anyway, but at least you're already standing comfortably. ;-)

Also, with the knot up six feet from the end, you've got enough rope to tie yourself in for subsequent prussiking or whathaveyou.

My personal favorite is to tie an overhand-on-a-bight into each end and clip them to your belay loop. Then there is no knot to get stuck in any crack and no way to rap off the ends. There is less length of rope hanging on the wall, too. Also works well for peace of mind when simul-rapping.

Then only downside I have found is that it is difficult to see how far your lines will go, since your ends aren't hanging down.

Gigette Miller wrote:Yes, Mark, lots of Booty in Red Rock. ; ) Local Vegas climbers are all pirates at heart, anyway.

Arrgh! You & Johnnie come down to the Splat, we'll pillage & burn!! Well, maybe not, since the place is already roasted, thanks to T.L. Barton; and, I don't want to take the rest of it out; and I'll probably give all the gear back anyway.

Man, I'm not much of a swashbuckler, but I'm a pretty fair shooter. Hoist the mainsail, thar's climbs to be had!

Mark Nelson wrote: Arrgh! You & Johnnie come down to the Splat, we'll pillage & burn!!

We shall set sail to the Splat some day, Matey.

Mark Nelson wrote:I'll probably give all the gear back anyway.

Arrgh, Captain Mark, you shall see.... I will be the first Vegas Pirate (or Wench) to post a "Found Gear" ad in the Red Rocks Forum. So thar! ; )