Webbing

I am new to climbing and am still learning about gear.
I have some questions on Webbing. I recently purchased 20 feet each of:
BW - 1" tubular climb specific (purple)
BW - 9/16" tubular climb specific (red)
From local REI to practice my Anchor systems, 2 and 3 point cordelettes, knots etc.
I see everyone utilizing webbing for this and that and was wondering if there is a general consensus on what lengths to cut the webbing. For the purpose of making slings, lanyards for tree anchors, for quick draws etc..
ALso, are the two types of webbing I purchased what is used for these applications.

Thankyou, Jeff

I use webbing for setting up top rope anchors because it works and it is cheap. I wrap a loop around trees and giant rocks and then sling an equalizing cordelette from them to make a 'bomber' setup. This translates into three webbing loops, usually anywhere from 25 to 50 feet in length. Read the books "Anchors" and "More Anchors" (and can't remember the author) and then have an experienced climber show you. If you goof-up you or a friend can die.

Bulk webbing is quite practical for the top-roping climber. It's cheap and easy to work with.

I don't see much of it in use as a trad climber except for keeping a small supply on hand for bail gear. As a trad climber, I typically use pre-sewn slings of nylon-spectra mix (the checkerboard stuff) in the 24 inch (and sometimes 48 inch) length and 6-8mm width stock for runners. For quickdraws, again I opt for the pre-sewn dogbones. For cordelettes I prefer to use cord, and specifically I like to use the 5.5mm spectra cord as in BW Titan.

Back to top roping with webbing up to 1" width, this stuff is super-strong and cheap enough to sacrifice to rough usages like wrapping around slings and boulders. If I had to cut my stuff up into a kit, I'd cut the webbing so that I could tie several 24 and 48 inch loops (adding extra for the knots). These lengths fit over-the-shoulder nicely - double up the 48s. And I would leave at least twenty feet left uncut for on the spot usage. This is a good reason to always carry a knife with you while climbing.

Tie the loops with water knots, maybe back these knots up with half-hitches, I usually don't. Tie the knots so that the webbing lays together neatly and so that the web doesn't twist through the loop. You can then girth hitch (choke) these slings around trees and rocks.

One other use for bulk webbing that I use sometimes is as an abrasion resistant sleeve for rope. If you buy some bulk 10-11mm static line, this stuff is great to use for bomber top-rope anchors and you can thread it into the webbing for extra cut-resistance. Static rope has little or no stretch so it's not to be used for the belay rope, it's only used in this case for anchors.

As mentioned previously, it's important to have redundant anchors that are properly equalized. Top rope anchors see a lot of load and are vital to one's safety. John Long's books "Climbing Anchors" and "More Climbing Anchors" come highly recommended as does his book "How to Rock Climb".

John

Great info John! Also, after tying the water knot, it is important to stand in the sling and bounce on it in order to set the knot.

scott isaacman wrote:I use webbing for setting up top rope anchors because it works and it is cheap. I wrap a loop around trees and giant rocks and then sling an equalizing cordelette from them to make a 'bomber' setup. This translates into three webbing loops, usually anywhere from 25 to 50 feet in length. Read the books "Anchors" and "More Anchors" (and can't remember the author) and then have an experienced climber show you. If you goof-up you or a friend can die.

John Long was the author. Good books!

One minor but possibly important point: Water knots do slip gradually after repeated weightings. Accidents have been attributed to this. Try to remember to inspect your water knots from time to time.

A potentially life saving read is 'Accidents in North American Mountaineering'. Sobering...it can take the wind out of your sails, but carefully studying the analysis of what goes wrong can instill experience without the consequences. I don't know who said, "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."

Excellent Information everyone, thankyou very much.
I actually have just read John longs Books,
"How to rock climb" and "Climbing Anchors" This is the reasoning for the questions, He really does not get in to the Webbing aspect of it but does show alot of pictures on the way to place the anchors, Only 1 page on Webbing knots in the whole book.

I guess I was under the impression that it was a huge tool used by all climbers... Just out 12 bucks anyway. I Will really use it for Top rope applications anyway for anchors or some lanyards.

I will really know the knots exceptionally well before putting them into use.

Thanks again,
Jeff

Jeff, you're not out $12. It is a tool used in a lot of places and in many styles of climbing. Lacking a bolt anchor, I usually will sling trees or large boulders with webbing while top roping. My usual TR kit includes a pair of 25' webbing chunks. On particularly, umm, adventurous trad climbing, it can also come in handy for the same purpose. I always carry about 15' of the narrower webbing (9/16"?) for leaving as bail slings and/or reinforcing existing anchors. Wouldn't hurt to carry a quick link or two as well. Also, a small knife to cut webbing, moleskin, salami, or to do battle with the marmots.

As for runners, I'll second what other people here have said. Carry pre-sewn nylon or spectra runners rather than tying your own. They are less error-prone and much more compact, if marginally more expensive.

Ben Faber wrote:I'd like offer a warning about taking what many "veteran/hard" climbers say as gospel. All too often I see more than a few of these climbers not properly equalizing anchors, back-clipping and not opposing biners (just to name a few transgressions). They've usually been lucky.

I second the Faberator on that. I was thinking about exactly this last night. Just be aware that you can see newer climbers with solid anchors and pro and seasoned climbers who don't know what they should, or have gotten slack. Generally the situation is the flip, but as Ben implies -- always be thinking about what you're taking as advice and if it makes sense in conjunction with what else you've read and learned. In short, if you follow the mainstream literature (like the books mentioned, Moutaineering: Freedom of the Hills, etc.) and keep things simple (I've seen some people propose some really overly elaborate anchors on this site), you'll probably do fine. And above all ... DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON A DAISY CHAIN OF DEATH!!! Seems every new climber thinks they need one, then misuses them :)

Have fun!

Don't forget to protect your software. Runners and ropes can lose strength just sitting in your closet. Sunlight is the biggest culprit, but simple oxidation as it sits there is a factor. Ozone from motors (fridge or fan) will greatly accelerate this process. Keep software in plastic bags or if you have a FoodSaver, vacuum pack your gear for off season storage. Additionally, be extra careful where you put your gear for transportation-keep away from oils and batteries!

One other side note Kevin. Good advice here doesn't always equate to sound practice on the rock. Same thing goes for how too books no matter how reputable they are such as Longs Climbing anchors. If you dont have atleast one person with some solid climbing knowledge you could find yourself up a creek. Just because you can tie a knot perfectly and you understand the theory behind anchors doesn't mean even at the crags you will be applying it effectively.

Avery Nelson wrote: ... DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON A DAISY CHAIN OF DEATH!!! Seems every new climber thinks they need one, then misuses them :) Have fun!

Funny, I was told at Neptune in Boulder, Just the opposite. I needed one as it is a common tool I would need???

So I bought one, then kind of regreted it after seeing the threads on it and the video Black Diamond has out on the misuse of connecting. I went on a three pitch climb last friday and used it as my tie in but at full length only and a backup nylon sling. I feel a little better about it now.
On another note, I would never attempt to set a top rope or climb a crag with out the help of an experienced climber.

Joshua Blake wrote: ..Just because you can tie a knot perfectly and you understand the theory behind anchors doesn't mean even at the crags you will be applying it effectively.

I could not agree more, but you have to have the book smarts to establish a base to begin applying on the rock.

This is the phase I am in, questions, questions, questions :)
Jeff

Jeffrey,

Joshua brought up a good point. You are working on the academics which are essential, but at some point soon, an apprenticeship is required. An excellent way to do that is to take some classes. Check out Colorado Mtn School: 970-586-5758. A class or two there will gel all the academics. Then you can ascertain potential partner's safety practices.

I use a daisy chain and I love it. I have used one for over a decade now and all it takes is a little common sense. I wouldn't feel as safe without it...

As for webbing, all I ever buy is the 9/16" for rappels on alpine climbs. It is lighter weight, packs down small, cheap, and easy to rig for raps. I typically carry 25' when doing a route with an unknown descent. Like my daisy chain, life saving stuff.

handtruck wrote:I use a daisy chain and I love it. I have used one for over a decade now and all it takes is a little common sense.

Dude. Come on Handtruck! Those things are bad news. They're designed for aiding, and that's it. I give you full credit for using it 'correctly' (your memory is probably a lot sharper than mine for remembering all the 'don'ts' of daisys ;), but it's totally an unnecessary weak link that the user can screw up royally and not even recognize or know.

Just my opinion, but I don't recommend them to anyone. Plenty of the climbing population would agree. A bit exaggerated, but it's kind of like having a magical rope that works for all knots, except for the Bowline where, if tied, the rope 'magically' has no strength. Or, kind of like carrying 'bad/dropped/mangled biners' on the route to rack gear on. Better to leave gear that isn't full strength at home.

Remember -- daisy's are engineered for aiding, not a personal anchor!

Daisy end-end Strength = 16-19 kN
Daisy Pocket Strength = 3 kN (674 lb -- less force than is used to bounce test some pieces!)
Sewn Runner Strength = 22 kN

Why would a climber carry any piece of gear that isn't full strength, when better, safer, equally-functional alternatives exist? Especially the piece they clip in with, more than anything.

jeffrey wrote: Funny, I was told at Neptune in Boulder, Just the opposite. I needed one as it is a common tool I would need??? So I bought one, then kind of regreted it after seeing the threads on it and the video Black Diamond has out on the misuse of connecting. I went on a three pitch climb last friday and used it as my tie in but at full length only and a backup nylon sling. I feel a little better about it now.

That was a crummy sales tool.

Might as well just use the stronger, cheaper, more versitle sling, then?

I don't have one, but those PAS are the way to go if you want fully adjustable length.

If anyone wants to donate their weak daisy's to a good cause, I was going to mount a few inside my haul bag to hang gear off... but I threw mine out years ago!

Avery Nelson wrote: Dude. Come on Handtruck! Those things are bad news. They're designed for aiding, and that's it.

Nah, man, it is all good when I am sitting at the belay. I am not going to put any astronomical forces on it and I always have my partner running through a piece and then to me. Come on, the daisy wasn't just invented for aiding, it is for climbing (or rather hanging out as the case may be).

Avery Nelson wrote: I give you full credit for using it 'correctly' (your memory is probably a lot sharper than mine for remembering all the 'don'ts' of daisys ;), but it's totally an unnecessary weak link that the user can screw up royally and not even recognize or know.

The top loop never leaves my locking biner (a Petzel Oval at that). I just clip into another loop to set my length, but I am always backed up on the master loop as if it was one big over the shoulder runner. (I do have to give you credit for cordially saying I was on top of my shit though, that was nice and this forum could use a bit more of it.)

Daisy use is simple to get down and saves time; therefore, daisy use is a must have in your 'safety quiver.'

Besides, isn't daisy use for anyting over one pitch? I have to admit, even with a daisy I am still tied in and still clove hitched to the anchor. I am Mr. Back-Up Back-Up.

Avery Nelson wrote: A bit exaggerated, but it's kind of like having a magical rope that works for all knots, except for the Bowline where, if tied, the rope 'magically' has no strength.

Next thing I know you will tell me that a bowline has no strength...

Avery Nelson wrote: Or, kind of like carrying 'bad/dropped/mangled biners' on the route to rack gear on. Better to leave gear that isn't full strength at home.

Or, that all the gear I have found on the Red Ledge of Eldo has so many micro-fractures in it that I can't trust it to stop my fall or my partners or hold our belay in place.

I guess I don't understand the irony of my climbing experiences: I read Accidents in North American, I long ago survived my 'storm' years, but I have become complacent in what I know works. Geeeezzz, you got me!?!

handtruck wrote: The top loop never leaves my locking biner (a Petzel Oval at that). I just clip into another loop to set my length, but I am always backed up on the master loop as if it was one big over the shoulder runner.

Handtruck, I'm pretty sure I must be misunderstanding what you've said. But, perhaps a communication thing.

If someone unfamiliar with daisy's was to read this and follow what you've said (always stay clipped into the end loop)... and if they didn't know to always put the half-twist into the daisy (thus providing the 'sliding-x' equivalent, they'd fall off the anchor and hit the ground if they saw a load > 3 kN and the daisy happened to be the only thing they were tied into.

In contrast, my understanding is that it's a better technique to NEVER CLIP THE END LOOP, else you risk not getting the half-twist in the daisy correctly and thus 'no longer being attached to your anchor' if you become loaded.

This being said, I avoid the things for these confusing purposes, so please correct me if I misunderstand them.

Can you clarify what you meant?

I mostly use my daisy chain as a backup, and adjust the distance from the anchor with a clove hitch on the climbing rope. However, if I need/choose to clip in short with the daisy, I use a second biner to connect one of the side pockets to the belay loop of my harness.

It is definitely possible to misuse daisy chains, but it is not so terribly difficult to use them properly. My dyneema daisy is rated 22kN when used as a sling, but is a bit more versatile than a sling. So, that BD video should be mandatory viewing, and instilling a little fear of these devices in the minds of inexperienced climbers is probably a good thing to do, but without going too far. After all, it is very easy to misuse SLCDs, and a new climber should practice with passive pro, but in the end we all use cams.

Yeah, was thinking this morning about that two biner approach being an exception to clipping into the end.