Pros v Cons which would you choose.

Getting some hardware together for a rappel route.

Which of the below do you prefer and why?

Left setup is one 1/2" Glue in to 1/2" Galvanized steel pear shaped ring. The bolt will be ~40-50Kn and the galvanized steel pear shaped thingy has a WLL of 3 tons (thru bolt is 3/8" SS). My thought here is plenty of room to clip in for even multiple teams and hard wearing steel for the rappel rope grooving. Its removable and you could even add a ring to it but a standard 10mm link won't fit it's that beefy. Good enough without a second bolt?

The other is a solid 10mm ring connected via all stainless to 2 3/8" hangers with SS wedge anchors. These are all testing super good enough and rigged in a standard redundant fashion.

To be placed in a sun exposed spot not especially wet.

Your thoughts and rationale please!

hillbilly hijinks wrote:

Getting some hardware together for a rappel route.

Which of the below do you prefer and why?

Left setup is one 1/2" Glue in to 1/2" Galvanized steel pear shaped ring. The bolt will be ~40-50Kn and the galvanized steel pear shaped thingy has a WLL of 3 tons (thru bolt is 3/8" SS). My thought here is plenty of room to clip in for even multiple teams and hard wearing steel for the rappel rope grooving. Its removable and you could even add a ring to it but a standard 10mm link won't fit it's that beefy. Good enough without a second bolt?

The other is a solid 10mm ring connected via all stainless to 2 3/8" hangers with SS wedge anchors. These are all testing super good enough and rigged in a standard redundant fashion.

To be placed in a sun exposed spot not especially wet.

Your thoughts and rationale please!

Even though the stainless shackles on the right are not safety shackles with a cotter pin, I'd prefer to see that.  It's more redundant, and you could use stainless lockwire on the shackles to counteract the possibility of the crossbolt loosening.

That pear shaped ring looks cool, but it doesn't look like it has any wiggle room on the eye of the bolt. So it won't be able to rotate, and it will hold the rope against the rock.  Also it's uncommon enough that it might confuse someone (if the nut backs off/ falls off the threads, it could look fine but the crossbolt could fall out).  and it's not stainless.

Jim Day wrote:

Even though the stainless shackles on the right are not safety shackles with a cotter pin, I'd prefer to see that.  It's more redundant, and you could use stainless lockwire on the shackles to counteract the possibility of the crossbolt loosening.

That pear shaped ring looks cool, but it doesn't look like it has any wiggle room on the eye of the bolt. So it won't be able to rotate, and it will hold the rope against the rock.  Also it's uncommon enough that it might confuse someone (if the nut backs off/ falls off the threads, it could look fine but the crossbolt could fall out).  and it's not stainless.

There's a lock washer on the cross bolt for the big galvanized pear. And yep, its not stainless but something that is 1/2" galvy should last 30+ years under standard sun exposed Sierra Nevada conditions. If it was SS too it might cost a fortune. It doesn't rotate, but the rope has clearance due to the size of the 1/2" glue-in eye. Probably 1/2" clearance under it. It would have to be placed correctly to swing freely and not rest on the rock. I could also add a 10mm quick link and rotate it perpendicular to the rock it the spot seemed to require it.

I don't see any advantage to the big pear ring. I don't want to clip the same place that I'm threading the rope - makes feeding it annoying. Both climbers being clipped into the same point is also crowded and annoying. I also like to biner block and single strand rap, which will be impossible with the big ring.

Big Red wrote:

I don't see any advantage to the big pear ring. I don't want to clip the same place that I'm threading the rope - makes feeding it annoying. Both climbers being clipped into the same point is also crowded and annoying. I also like to biner block and single strand rap, which will be impossible with the big ring.

So at least a second bolt below for biner blocking (it would be a lower back up so the biner would go to it first)? It would be in-line to eliminate twist so maybe not much help with "crowding". Also, the glue-in eye has enough room for one or more carabiners to clip in, if required.

My thoughts on the "advantage" of the big pear: Super beefy for wear and simplicity to go with the big glue-in and even with carabiners clipped in feeding the rope will have no binding. I could also simply do a standard 10mm single ring and quick link but really was shooting for something beefy enough that you wouldn't have to add another hole. Dunno if everyone is ready for rapping off one (albeit 1/2") glue-in and one link and ring.

The breaking strength on the big Pear with a WLL of ~7000lbs should be at least double that.

No on the weird pear thing. No on single-bolt rap, esp. in a freeze thaw enviro. Stick to recognizable hardware setups.

Why are there these almost constant reinventing the wheel approaches on MP?

SS shackles are great. However, I dislike that type of shackle closure for life supporting applications. Ones that have a nut instead of just threading into the bell itself are much more appropriate.
You could mouse it with something, or thread lock, but not ideal.

With the big pear....nah. Juice doesn't seem worth the squeeze at all.

hillbilly hijinks wrote:

There's a lock washer on the cross bolt for the big galvanized pear. And yep, its not stainless but something that is 1/2" galvy should last 30+ years under standard sun exposed Sierra Nevada conditions. If it was SS too it might cost a fortune. It doesn't rotate, but the rope has clearance due to the size of the 1/2" glue-in eye. Probably 1/2" clearance under it. It would have to be placed correctly to swing freely and not rest on the rock. I could also add a 10mm quick link and rotate it perpendicular to the rock it the spot seemed to require it.

Ha.  Lock washers...

I would prefer the chain, since it has two bolts with a connection between the two beyond doubt. You could add a small stell wire to the shackles to prevent them coming open. If you are concerned about the wear on the rap ring you might add a quick link hanging down.

My concern with the pear thing is: If you add another hanger next to it for redundancy (and you should), you need to connect the two with rope or accessory cord and this will make for a really messy rap station

As others have mentioned I too prefer to tether on something different than the rap ring, so threading the rope is easier and visibility is better.

Dan The Man wrote:

These things suck IMO because it all welded together, you're stuck in the confines of the set up. Rock doesn't always allow for this type of premade anchor to be functional....and they're usually more expensive than just getting the components you need and building a modular anchor to handle the individual nature of a particular route or rap line. To clarify, they are nice, and I would be happy as heck to come across in the wild..... just too many caveats that don't like to consider for use myself.

Dan The Man wrote:

This is not my favorite due to the difficulty in replacing the ring when it's worn. Then, including the tedious removal process required (heavy bolt cutters or endless sawing) you end up using a shackle/quick link to add the new ring anyways. Better to do it right the first time, imo. 

It attempts to be economical but just kicks the can down the road. Of course, nearly all the "anchor sets" suffer from this same issue (the cost and difficulty of replacement).

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

No on the weird pear thing. No on single-bolt rap, esp. in a freeze thaw enviro. Stick to recognizable hardware setups.

Single point lower offs and anchors are common in Europe. Could you expand on the concern about a glue-in in a "freeze-thaw cycle"? I was under the impression that glue was superior to any mechanical means of tension holding the bolt in. Was I wrong? The set up posted would have a breaking strength near 10,000 pounds, stronger than any rope, webbing or biner climbers use. Is it strong enough to not need back up? That is the question posed to this group.

Marc801 C wrote:

Why are there these almost constant reinventing the wheel approaches on MP?

It's not a reinventing of the wheel. As above, single anchor points are common and acceptable for a rappel/lower-off anchor in many countries to my knowledge. Part of the reason for this post is to gauge attitudes towards that kind of a setup ie one very large anchor point v. 2 smaller ones. Given how many rap off on single rings, why not just use one huge bolt rather than drilling two? That has been addressed a bit but the pear shaped ring makes crowding less of an issue. There are pros and cons and I welcome the input.

Fundamentally, it's about an open discussion for people to share their knowledge and preferences and to see how accepted glue-ins are (at least among this peanut gallery).

hillbilly hijinks wrote:

This is not my favorite due to the difficulty in replacing the ring when it's worn. Then, including the tedious removal process required (heavy bolt cutters or endless sawing) you end up using a shackle/quick link to add the new ring anyways. Better to do it right the first time, imo. 

It attempts to be economical but just kicks the can down the road. Of course, nearly all the "anchor sets" suffer from this same issue (the cost and difficulty of replacement).

Easy to replace it if the ring is worn, just bring a new chain anchor up. All you need to replace it is a wrench. Then bring the worn one home to cut off the ring and replace with a quicklink and new ring.

Your first post says that it's for a rappel route, how long do you think it will take to wear out the ring?

A pair of these ring-hangers can also work well as a rappel anchor, just remember to offset them to avoid twisting the rope. Good luck with your project.

You can build a good anchor with what you have there... glue-in or mechanic will depend on a lot of other factors.

In the picture I see 2 hangers, atleast 2 quick links, a piece of chain, and a rap ring!  You should be good to go just put them together.

Absolutely no need for the tow loop, machine bolt, or shackles. 

Single point lower offs and anchors are common in Europe. Could you expand on the concern about a glue-in in a "freeze-thaw cycle"? I was under the impression that glue was superior to any mechanical means of tension holding the bolt in.

Oh, you didn't say you were bolting in Europe, my bad.

The concern is a whole team hanging on a single bolt.

i hate the pear idea. it is going to want to sit flat against the wall and pinch the rope when you are trying to pull it. hard pass on that one.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Oh, you didn't say you were bolting in Europe, my bad.

The concern is a whole team hanging on a single bolt.

It tests to 40KN+. You could hang 10 teams on it with np, though, crowding is a reasonable concern albeit one of convenience.

slim wrote:

i hate the pear idea. it is going to want to sit flat against the wall and pinch the rope when you are trying to pull it. hard pass on that one.

Yes, I agree that is consensus unless the position afforded enough clearance.

The Morse-Bradys wrote:

You can build a good anchor with what you have there... glue-in or mechanic will depend on a lot of other factors.

In the picture I see 2 hangers, atleast 2 quick links, a piece of chain, and a rap ring!  You should be good to go just put them together.

Absolutely no need for the tow loop, machine bolt, or shackles. 

The shackles are a workaround for the SS chain that just won't quite fit the 5/16" quick links I have. They are more than strong enough but agree they would ideally need lock wire which is an easy fix.

Dan The Man wrote:

"Easy to replace it if the ring is worn, just bring a new chain anchor up. All you need to replace it is a wrench. Then bring the worn one home to cut off the ring and replace with a quicklink and new ring.

Your first post says that it's for a rappel route, how long do you think it will take to wear out the ring?

A pair of these ring-hangers can also work well as a rappel anchor, just remember to offset them to avoid twisting the rope. Good luck with your project."

Yes, that is a very familiar setup. The dilemma in my mind is the amount of offset to space the climbing team apart. Space it for the convenient spacing of the rappelers or for belaying the next pitch and it adds twist. Place them vertically inline and the team gets crowded. Hard to decide. Unfortunately access to this rappel route is somewhat strenuous so something easiest to replace would be ideal.

Thanks for the well wishes.

If it's just for a rappel route you're unlikely to EVER wear through a 10mm SS rappel ring. Some of the most popular multipitch routes in the country have negligible wear on their rings, replaceability is a great consideration for sport routes and lower offs but having to bring a hacksaw, grinder, or small bolt cutters up a route every 50-100 years if ever is probably the least of your concerns. I like a ring hanger and a small piece of chain with a couple of 5/16" ql's to connect the second bolt. If you want to go cheaper you could do away with the bottom ql and not connect the chain to the ring. 

Single-Point anchors and lower-offs are somehow common in Western Europe, but to my knowledge only on sport climbing routes, not on alpine routes and especially not on rappel stations / rap routes. There are some dubious variations of two bolts connected with old slings or rope, but still - redundant.

To my knowledge only the Swiss had a single point anchor called Muniring (very beefy!), but even there an additional bolt for redundancy was added over time.