Climbing with passive pro in the Southeast

Danny Birchman wrote:

Is ship rock accessible? The Broach is tits!

It’s accessible as long as the parkway is open. Supposed to snow in Boone again today though, so probably not this weekend. Let me know if you ever want to come get on it together!

Delete the hexes from that list and add tricams. You can do just about everything in the southeast with tricams and nuts.

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Delete the hexes from that list and add tricams. You can do just about everything in the southeast with tricams and nuts.

Would a full set (0.125-2) from camp be good for tricams?

Jim Corbett wrote:

For the OP—you are much better off starting with passive gear anyway. You become more attuned to the nuances of the rock and the placements, and a socker nut is at least as good as a bolt, often better as you know the history of the gear and can visually inspect the placement. One of the problems that you see with newbies starting out focused on cams is that they often assume that almost any placement where they can get the cam to stick is bomber. Umm, no. Cams can shift, rotate, and walk about. Lowe did a study many years ago that determined that cams in less than optimal placements blew up to 50% of the time. Learn your craft first, nuts do that.
Example: A number of years ago (late ‘90s) a couple of kids from CO showed up at T-Wall looking for sport climbs, of which there were a few, but all very hard. They bristled and said they led 5.12 at Table Rock in CO, but we explained that a 5.12 Robinson route at tWall was a whole different thing. So they went down to Chatta, whipped out Daddy’s credit card, and bought a rack. All cams. The older one comes back and leads Goldenlocks, barely. His brother can’t get off the ground. They seemed to have no idea what to do next, so I offered to clean it.
Not a single placement would have held a fall, several wouldn’t have held body weight. Don’t know how that’s even possible on a splitter hand crack, but he managed. When I got to the top, his anchor was his last cam shoved under a loose block and a tied off, dead, <2” diameter pine sapling. I was semi pissed, I would have been really pissed if I thought there was any chance of me falling. I escorted him over to a rap station, and when we got down I strongly suggested that he should just leave and not come back until he had a clue. No one wants to be that guy.

Also, there is nothing sketch or off brand about Wild Country (yes, I still use my ‘80s rigid stem Friends—get off my lawn) or DMM, both of which have been making cams longer than BD. Maybe you need to broaden your experience. 

Luckily when I did my Outward Bound I got to work with my instructors and learn about placing cams, nuts, and hexes so I think I have decent understanding of how to place them, and from conversations with those instructors it sounds like they’d be comfortable with me climbing trad stuff assuming I start on easier routes.

That example sounds absolutely terrible, I definitely hope I don’t put myself or anyone else in a position like that, so I’ll probably try to get out with more experienced people and see what they do when leading before doing it myself.

I had figured other brands of cams were fine, some of the people responding here said they were a bit off putting at times which is why I was curious. 

based on your initial post, areas worthy of visiting that have trad and mixed climbing opportunities....and that are closer than the Chatt-centric areas:
Steele
Griffin Falls
Noccalula Falls
Sand Rock
Buck's Pocket
Lost Wall, Jamestown

Any of those would save you up to 2-2.5 hours of drive time
All of these places will take an investment of time to learn their character, familiarity with the extent and specifics of the various routes, trails/logistics, etc. Maybe the only one where you can short cut that learning curve (by virtue of a guidebook or simply the layout/configuration of the place) is Sand Rock.

Noccalula is perhaps the closest to interstate access (the amount/time of driving you have to do once you leave the interstate).  Steele is second.  Griffin is third.  Buck's and Sand Rock are probably tied.  Lost Wall, Jamestown are last.

There is camping at SR, Noccalula, and Buck's

There are other factors in the value proposition of choosing which place to go. Average quality of routes, overall height of routes, trail conditions, how long it takes an area to dry out after rain, general vibe, etc

All of these places i've listed have info at this site, some better organized and more complete than others. A guidebook is nice, of course......but your instincts count for a lot too.

When i first began climbing i saved up and bought a full spread of hexs, nuts, and two cams......a Wild Country #1 and #2. I would typically save those cams for moments on a climb where the strenuousness required fast deployment of pro......and where i had time to fiddle, i would use the hexs and nuts. That was my logic. I did a lot of toproping.....and in fact, before having any pro, i just had a TR rigging kit, harness, shoes, chalkbag.

Over time, i accumulated more cams and finally had a full set of Wild Country units.  At that point i felt like i finally had a modern set of gear.  Of course there were slings and carabiners and such.

Being cam-poor influences you to become much more savvy with the passive pro than you may otherwise.

In more recent times i have purchased cams second hand from sellers at this site and on eBay. My advice would to always stay vigilant as a shopper, looking for a deal. Most recently i have bought almost a full set of Metolius cams in lots of three or four purchases from various people. They often sell for less although they aren't quite as durable as BD cams.......they are plenty good.....and lighter. Look for sales, look for bargains, avoid full price, buy used where you feel good about it. Watch out.......there are rare occasions where there are unscrupulous sellers (too good to be true sort of situations).....but those are pretty easy to sniff out.

Don't let lack of gear slow you down.
All this is my opinion, of course......i'm no expert.  Happy to help more feedback on area specifics if you should want

bernard wolfe wrote:

based on your initial post, areas worthy of visiting that have trad and mixed climbing opportunities....and that are closer than the Chatt-centric areas:
Steele
Griffin Falls
Noccalula Falls
Sand Rock
Buck's Pocket
Lost Wall, Jamestown

Any of those would save you up to 2-2.5 hours of drive time
All of these places will take an investment of time to learn their character, familiarity with the extent and specifics of the various routes, trails/logistics, etc. Maybe the only one where you can short cut that learning curve (by virtue of a guidebook or simply the layout/configuration of the place) is Sand Rock.

Noccalula is perhaps the closest to interstate access (the amount/time of driving you have to do once you leave the interstate).  Steele is second.  Griffin is third.  Buck's and Sand Rock are probably tied.  Lost Wall, Jamestown are last.

There is camping at SR, Noccalula, and Buck's

There are other factors in the value proposition of choosing which place to go. Average quality of routes, overall height of routes, trail conditions, how long it takes an area to dry out after rain, general vibe, etc

All of these places i've listed have info at this site, some better organized and more complete than others. A guidebook is nice, of course......but your instincts count for a lot too.

When i first began climbing i saved up and bought a full spread of hexs, nuts, and two cams......a Wild Country #1 and #2. I would typically save those cams for moments on a climb where the strenuousness required fast deployment of pro......and where i had time to fiddle, i would use the hexs and nuts. That was my logic. I did a lot of toproping.....and in fact, before having any pro, i just had a TR rigging kit, harness, shoes, chalkbag.

Over time, i accumulated more cams and finally had a full set of Wild Country units.  At that point i felt like i finally had a modern set of gear.  Of course there were slings and carabiners and such.

Being cam-poor influences you to become much more savvy with the passive pro than you may otherwise.

In more recent times i have purchased cams second hand from sellers at this site and on eBay. My advice would to always stay vigilant as a shopper, looking for a deal. Most recently i have bought almost a full set of Metolius cams in lots of three or four purchases from various people. They often sell for less although they aren't quite as durable as BD cams.......they are plenty good.....and lighter. Look for sales, look for bargains, avoid full price, buy used where you feel good about it. Watch out.......there are rare occasions where there are unscrupulous sellers (too good to be true sort of situations).....but those are pretty easy to sniff out.

Don't let lack of gear slow you down.
All this is my opinion, of course......i'm no expert.  Happy to help more feedback on area specifics if you should want

I’ll definitely check out those places you mentioned if I get the chance. Is Steele still worth going to given the property issues mentioned in the MP page for it?

In terms of trad pro, after some searching I found some really good deals on cams and picked up a set from .5-2 of previous generation C4s which I’m pretty happy with. I’ve also picked up a set of BD nuts (4-13) to go with them and am hoping that that’ll be a decent amount of gear to get me started, especially if supplemented by other people’s gear as some have offered in this thread.

I am curious, in terms of draws what would you recommend for trying out sport and trad climbs? My OB instructor recommended 12 QuickDraws and 4 alpines but from other stuff I’ve seen, that tends to be more aimed for sport climbing. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

I’ll definitely check out those places you mentioned if I get the chance. Is Steele still worth going to given the property issues mentioned in the MP page for it?

In terms of trad pro, after some searching I found some really good deals on cams and picked up a set from .5-2 of previous generation C4s which I’m pretty happy with. I’ve also picked up a set of BD nuts (4-13) to go with them and am hoping that that’ll be a decent amount of gear to get me started, especially if supplemented by other people’s gear as some have offered in this thread.

I am curious, in terms of draws what would you recommend for trying out sport and trad climbs? My OB instructor recommended 12 QuickDraws and 4 alpines but from other stuff I’ve seen, that tends to be more aimed for sport climbing. 

For trad, especially in places where the routes, or the protection options aren't always in a straight line, in addition to QDs and alpine draws, I also like several (3 or 4) over the shoulder length slings, maybe even one double, and several free biners.

.5-#2 and that set of nuts will service you well.

as far as clippy things,6 quick draws and 6 alpine draw will be more useful. Especially since you committed to learning to place passive pro, extending passive placements is helpful.
a single 120cm sling if handy for extension and anchor building. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

I’ll definitely check out those places you mentioned if I get the chance. Is Steele still worth going to given the property issues mentioned in the MP page for it?

In terms of trad pro, after some searching I found some really good deals on cams and picked up a set from .5-2 of previous generation C4s which I’m pretty happy with. I’ve also picked up a set of BD nuts (4-13) to go with them and am hoping that that’ll be a decent amount of gear to get me started, especially if supplemented by other people’s gear as some have offered in this thread.

I am curious, in terms of draws what would you recommend for trying out sport and trad climbs? My OB instructor recommended 12 QuickDraws and 4 alpines but from other stuff I’ve seen, that tends to be more aimed for sport climbing. 

No problems at Steele.  The write-up here is dated and the admin folks responsible for what is posted apparently will not update the text.  There is a lot of great climbing there and it is worth a visit....or many visits.  

Regarding Steele furthermore, i meant to add.......there is fee camping at Horse Pens 40, a premier bouldering destination that is around the mountain from the cliffs owned by the SCC and that are open to climbing. Horse Pens has a presence on social media and may have a web site.

On the QD/slings question..... Keep in mind that throughout the deep south, most routes are around half a rope length tall....or less. That is not always the case but predominantly so.... i try to arrange some versatility when i'm considering a climb i know little about. That being the case i typically carry eight or so typical length (six inches?) quickdraws, four to six longer 'quickdraws' (ten or so inches diameter of a open loop, sewn, 12mm tubular webbing), and a few loose carabiners with two foot diameter, open loop, sewn, 12mm tubular webbing slings that i put over my shoulder. Some people double these two-footers over, roughly halving their length, and rack them on a shoulder sling or their harness as 'alpine quickdraws'.

For the hardware, I break down my wired nuts and group them in four clusters of similar sizes, no more than four/five/six, each cluster on a separate carabiner. I have a carabiner for each cam and rack them on my harness in groups of similar or descending sizes. In more recent times i've replaced the carabiners devoted to cams with smaller models with wire gates in an effort to reduce weight. I've done the same with some of my quickdraws or at least use bent gates, thinking that the design will facilitate faster clipping. I feel like there are still times and reasons to have solid gate carabiners handy.....so i have some of those as well.

The hows and whys climbers rack and carry their gear on a climb the way they do is i guess mostly personal. I suppose when i was getting started i watched what other people did and over time developed a style that made sense to me. When i started climbing you carried all your gear over your shoulders, on slings. For awhile now I've been using the same model Black Diamond harness and use the four gear loops to organize my stuff in a way that makes sense to me. I carry the pro on my harness and one sling over one shoulder has a rack of quickdraws with a handful of two-foot slings over the other shoulder. In that way, most times i can reach for something without having to do a lot or any looking, just because i know how each piece is ordered on the harness and the sling. Sometimes the speed and efficiency in how you deploy your gear to protect yourself is crucial. So there truly is value in having a system that means something to you and that helps you stay organized and ready. Of course, inevitably......if your ascent of a particular route becomes a frenzied affair....with a lot of drama, physical exertion, and moments of desperation......the carefully laid order of the gear might likely give way to chaos .......which may mean at some point during the experience, you pause along the route if you can to sort and/or reorder stuff. It depends on how you feel about what you are going through, This component of mental management is just another element of all the things you are keeping track of in your mind as you progress up a climb.

.  

Tanner Hayes wrote:

I’ve found that Ship Rock here in NC eats up passive gear more than most other NC crags. Hit me up if you’re ever looking for a partner in the area. 

That area looks great! I have some family friends up in that area so I’ll see if I can get up there sometime and I’ll send you a message. 

bernard wolfe wrote:

No problems at Steele.  The write-up here is dated and the admin folks responsible for what is posted apparently will not update the text.  There is a lot of great climbing there and it is worth a visit....or many visits.  

Regarding Steele furthermore, i meant to add.......there is fee camping at Horse Pens 40, a premier bouldering destination that is around the mountain from the cliffs owned by the SCC and that are open to climbing. Horse Pens has a presence on social media and may have a web site.

On the QD/slings question..... Keep in mind that throughout the deep south, most routes are around half a rope length tall....or less. That is not always the case but predominantly so.... i try to arrange some versatility when i'm considering a climb i know little about. That being the case i typically carry eight or so typical length (six inches?) quickdraws, four to six longer 'quickdraws' (ten or so inches diameter of a open loop, sewn, 12mm tubular webbing), and a few loose carabiners with two foot diameter, open loop, sewn, 12mm tubular webbing slings that i put over my shoulder. Some people double these two-footers over, roughly halving their length, and rack them on a shoulder sling or their harness as 'alpine quickdraws'.

For the hardware, I break down my wired nuts and group them in four clusters of similar sizes, no more than four/five/six, each cluster on a separate carabiner. I have a carabiner for each cam and rack them on my harness in groups of similar or descending sizes. In more recent times i've replaced the carabiners devoted to cams with smaller models with wire gates in an effort to reduce weight. I've done the same with some of my quickdraws or at least use bent gates, thinking that the design will facilitate faster clipping. I feel like there are still times and reasons to have solid gate carabiners handy.....so i have some of those as well.

The hows and whys climbers rack and carry their gear on a climb the way they do is i guess mostly personal. I suppose when i was getting started i watched what other people did and over time developed a style that made sense to me. When i started climbing you carried all your gear over your shoulders, on slings. For awhile now I've been using the same model Black Diamond harness and use the four gear loops to organize my stuff in a way that makes sense to me. I carry the pro on my harness and one sling over one shoulder has a rack of quickdraws with a handful of two-foot slings over the other shoulder. In that way, most times i can reach for something without having to do a lot or any looking, just because i know how each piece is ordered on the harness and the sling. Sometimes the speed and efficiency in how you deploy your gear to protect yourself is crucial. So there truly is value in having a system that means something to you and that helps you stay organized and ready. Of course, inevitably......if your ascent of a particular route becomes a frenzied affair....with a lot of drama, physical exertion, and moments of desperation......the carefully laid order of the gear might likely give way to chaos .......which may mean at some point during the experience, you pause along the route if you can to sort and/or reorder stuff. It depends on how you feel about what you are going through, This component of mental management is just another element of all the things you are keeping track of in your mind as you progress up a climb.

.  

Good to hear Steele is doing well, I’ll check out the campgrounds around there and see if I can get up to some of the areas you recommended soon. I ordered a set of racking carabiners for my cams a couple days ago, and based on your advice I’ll order some more carabiners to organize the nuts a bit more.

I’ll try out the cross shoulder sling for draws, hopefully I’ll be able to dial in an organization system when I get some opportunities to lead. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

Would a full set (0.125-2) from camp be good for tricams?

Up to 2 is standard. I bring up to 3.5 when I travel out west. They cut down on the number of cams I have to bring. On sandstone they are better than regular cams.

The first camming devices hit the market in 1978, Wild Country Friends. It was 1985 before TCU's were introduced, which were the first small cams. Take a look at the FA dates on some classic routes at places like Sunset in Chattanooga or in the Carolinas. It may not be as safe, or as much fun, but it was common practice for quite a few years to climb with just stoppers and hexes.

Jody Jacobs wrote:

The first camming devices hit the market in 1978, Wild Country Friends. It was 1985 before TCU's were introduced, which were the first small cams. Take a look at the FA dates on some classic routes at places like Sunset in Chattanooga or in the Carolinas. It may not be as safe, or as much fun, but it was common practice for quite a few years to climb with just stoppers and hexes.

I think tricams would have been way more popular had they been invented before Friends. I believe they came out in the same year as Friends. So they never had a chance to become popular before being overshadowed by a slightly easier to place piece of protection.

bryans wrote:

I thing getting those 4 cams for $200 is a score, assuming they are in decent shape. You might want to budget $10 or so each to get them re-slung, depending on their age and appearance. The great thing about Totems is they are sized to fit between each BD size, not duplicate their sizing, making them a great complement to BDs. For example a purple Totem is bigger than a .5 BD but smaller than a .75 BD. I don't know the ins and outs of each style cam, I'm only telling you what I see in the field. But if you go to Indian Creek everyone will be talking about and using BDs, not DMMs, and there must be a reason.

If you get further into lead climbing and go to trad areas you will quickly meet people who already have full racks, or have partial racks like you, and you'll often combine racks - so make sure you have quality standard gear rather than lots of weird stuff people will have second thoghts about. We form judgments quickly about people and for better or worse that can involve judging the gear they chose to buy.

I've owned and used Rigid Friends, Aliens, Tricams, TCUs, Master cams and several generations of Camalots but these days I prefer Totems for most active placements. One can always find situations where something else is better but it's hard to beat them all around. The big drawback is the price. But I usually keep a few hexes on my rack too as they often work better in irregular cracks than any cam. 

Even if you had all the money in the world, the advice to go out, climb with some locals, and learn the gear through climbing with them is the best advice here. And then you don’t need to worry about buying a rack for a while either.