Climbing with passive pro in the Southeast

I live in Florida and have been top roping at some limestone quarries in my area, but I’m looking to expand into sport and trad climbing in the Southeast, particularly Chattanooga area but I’m still looking for any good areas throughout.

Cams are pretty expensive, and I’ve been looking around for some good deals, but in the meantime would a set of BD stoppers #4-13 and a set of BD hexes #4-10 be enough to get by on most single pitch trad climbs in the Southeast?
What are some recommended guidebooks for climbing in the Southeast, and does anyone have any favorite areas that could be advisable for beginning in sport and trad climbing?

Short answer: no. 

If you're coming to Chattanooga, you can't beat Twall. Get the Chattrad guidebook. 

Building out your initial rack can be expensive, sure. Get the stoppers, the smaller ones too. Skip the hexes. Try and meet up with someone experienced and they'll let you plug their cams for a day. Be able to changeover and clean a route and give a safe belay. Buy a round down at River Drifters after. 

If you make it up here, hit me up. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

I live in Florida and have been top roping at some limestone quarries in my area, but I’m looking to expand into sport and trad climbing in the Southeast, particularly Chattanooga area but I’m still looking for any good areas throughout.

Cams are pretty expensive, and I’ve been looking around for some good deals, but in the meantime would a set of BD stoppers #4-13 and a set of BD hexes #4-10 be enough to get by on most single pitch trad climbs in the Southeast?
What are some recommended guidebooks for climbing in the Southeast, and does anyone have any favorite areas that could be advisable for beginning in sport and trad climbing?

Where are there top-ropeable limestone quarries in FL? Not that I'll be booking a flight to try them out, but am curious, as I am unaware of such locales.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Where are there top-ropeable limestone quarries in FL? Not that I'll be booking a flight to try them out, but am curious, as I am unaware of such locales.

In the Vortex area of Santos bike park in Ocala there are limestone cliffs that have gotten a small climbing community formed in Ocala. I believe they were excavated as part of the Florida canal project. All anchors are made on trees above as far as I can tell.

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/123535891/santos

https://www.ocalarocks.org/home/vortex-area

There are also some previously public quarries in the Gainesville Area, though I believe they may now be private and part of more active mining operations (I may visit them still).

https://maps.app.goo.gl/NSGDkPnPyzQuknfZ7?g_st=com.google.maps.preview.copy

https://www.reddit.com/r/GNV/comments/jq4snb/the_newberry_quarry/?rdt=42097

Reddit post has a good view of some of the rock. 

When I was first trying to enter the world of trad I was in your shoes. I went back to school married with a mortgage, and then had two kids during it so cash has been slow for years. I wanted to find the quickest and cheapest route to get into it and was looking to do exactly what you are and I am glad I didn’t. It took me over two years, but slowly I accumulated gear one bit at a time and then invested the money into  a two day trad course from a certified guide. Now I have a double rack and am so glad that I took the route I did.

Trad is fucking sketchy and you want to make sure you know what you’re doing and have the gear to do it. Yes, passive pro can get you a good way but there’s plenty of places it just won’t work as well as a cam. I can’t stress enough how important proper instruction is either. You don’t know the quality of others habits and after watching YouTube videos for years, I was still humbled and realized how little I knew when I took the course. I had a guide gently set me straight once through MP when I was trying to go cheap, it’s your life and you owe it to yourself to make sure you stay safe. 

Thanks for the information on Vortex.

Back to your original question. While I basically don't disagree with what Nick and Jacob wrote, I want to point out that there were about 7 or 8 years after the 'clean climbing revolution' in the late '60s/70s ( when nuts took over from pitons as the principal form of protection) before camming devices became available, so all we had were stoppers and hexes---and very many climbs were safely led. I believe that some climbers from that era, most notably Henry Barber ( Google him if you are not familiar with his name) still avoid using cams. There are also certain placements even today, where hexes work better than cams. So, through being very selective about the routes you climb, you could still find some that are appropriate for the rack you describe.

I'm not from the south and have only limited experience climbing there, but I believe that there are a number of areas with shorter climbs ( Sand Rock, AL comes to mind as a possibility) where you can practice placements at ground level, then maybe do a very easy lead or 2, while also having sport and top-rope options available as well. Obviously it would be best to take a trad or anchor building course, hire a guide for a day, or, if neither of the above is feasible, go with someone with more experience. 

Jacob W wrote:

When I was first trying to enter the world of trad I was in your shoes. I went back to school married with a mortgage, and then had two kids during it so cash has been slow for years. I wanted to find the quickest and cheapest route to get into it and was looking to do exactly what you are and I am glad I didn’t. It took me over two years, but slowly I accumulated gear one bit at a time and then invested the money into  a two day trad course from a certified guide. Now I have a double rack and am so glad that I took the route I did.

Trad is fucking sketchy and you want to make sure you know what you’re doing and have the gear to do it. Yes, passive pro can get you a good way but there’s plenty of places it just won’t work as well as a cam. I can’t stress enough how important proper instruction is either. You don’t know the quality of others habits and after watching YouTube videos for years, I was still humbled and realized how little I knew when I took the course. I had a guide gently set me straight once through MP when I was trying to go cheap, it’s your life and you owe it to yourself to make sure you stay safe. 

You have a really good point. About cams, now that I’ve been looking around on the forums here I think I’ve found some good deals to be able to possibly pick up some cams. A pretty basic set of them would be .3-3, right?

In terms of learning how to use trad gear, I went on an Outward Bound this summer mountaineering in the San Juan’s, and spent a decent amount of time working with my instructors to learn about building anchors and utilizing trad gear, and was able to practice independently. I think I am to the point where I can fairly confidently assess placements, though I may still consider a course as you have mentioned. I’m planning to call with my instructors this week and talk about various ideas with them and see what they think in terms of safety. If I recall correctly over the summer they recommended that with the experience I had, I should try to find some 5.5 or generally easy trad climbs to get used to it and placing gear as I move, which seems to indicate to me that they as guides feel I know enough to be safe, but I will confirm this with them soon.

I definitely don’t pick up enough information through YouTube videos or even books like Freedom of the Hills, but I’ve been trying to practice the stuff I learned over the summer, supplemented by knowledge from online and literary sources. If this sounds unreasonable in terms of learning then perhaps I am just being naive.

If I get up to some place with an actual lead climbing community, I’ll see if I can find an experienced person to work with first, as you have mentioned.

Get the cams as you can afford them, and find people with full racks to climb with in the meantime. Know your limits, and don't worry about pushing your grade.

Some crags are better suited to skimpy racks, others you're going to need doubles or more. My first few years of leading trad, I had nuts and hexes, a few tricams, and just 2 Chouinard cams. I believe green .75 and yellow 2. I just stayed away from splitters, and got used to runouts. Climbed routes in Moab that now I'd want tripples!

Branan Andreu wrote:

You have a really good point. About cams, now that I’ve been looking around on the forums here I think I’ve found some good deals to be able to possibly pick up some cams. A pretty basic set of them would be .3-3, right?

In terms of learning how to use trad gear, I went on an Outward Bound this summer mountaineering in the San Juan’s, and spent a decent amount of time working with my instructors to learn about building anchors and utilizing trad gear, and was able to practice independently. I think I am to the point where I can fairly confidently assess placements, though I may still consider a course as you have mentioned. I’m planning to call with my instructors this week and talk about various ideas with them and see what they think in terms of safety. If I recall correctly over the summer they recommended that with the experience I had, I should try to find some 5.5 or generally easy trad climbs to get used to it and placing gear as I move, which seems to indicate to me that they as guides feel I know enough to be safe, but I will confirm this with them soon.

I definitely don’t pick up enough information through YouTube videos or even books like Freedom of the Hills, but I’ve been trying to practice the stuff I learned over the summer, supplemented by knowledge from online and literary sources. If this sounds unreasonable in terms of learning then perhaps I am just being naive.

If I get up to some place with an actual lead climbing community, I’ll see if I can find an experienced person to work with first, as you have mentioned.

Oh nice, it does sound like you’ve got a good start on the instruction so perusing more would definitely be to your discretion! As far as gear, .4-3 is what’s typically known as standard. I have a rack of black diamond and a rack of wild country and you couldn’t go wrong with either one. I eventually added a 4 and then a black, blue, and yellow totem (basically a .2, .3, and .4 which I got instead of a .4 BD). I also went inexpensive for my nuts and got the wild country classics if you don’t mind not having different colors. My best suggestion for obtaining gear would be to look on https://www.oliunid.com/.. They’re basically an Italian REI and their prices far beat what you can find in America because they don’t follow MSRP rules that they do here. Shipping can be expensive but when buying mutable things, the savings far outweigh the cost. I’ve bought a lot from them and have been satisfied every time. Sorry if I’m spraying a bit here, just want to help someone the way I was helped when I first got into trad! Super stoked for ya.   

As someone that learned trad in the southeast and mostly climbs in NC, VA, TN, WV, and KY you can most certainly get by with a full set of offset nuts and tricams. Cams are nice when you are climbing a splitter, but otherwise they aren't always necessary. Take for example the Linville Gorge; a lot of the climbs there protect better with tricams and nuts than with cams due to irregularity in the cracks. Like some of the other people have said, see if you can climb with other people that already have a set of cams as most people start with those anyways. If you get the offset nuts instead of regular nuts first, you will have more range in your protection. 

I would recommend the DMM alloy offset nuts plus a single rack of tricams from black to navy. You can get a few extra of the tricam evos to round out the set (pink, red, brown)

After getting that pro, see if you can find some used cams on facebook or the buy/sell page here. Metolius master cams, and tcus are my favorite since they are really light, generally cheaper, very durable, and can be repaired by metolius in the US at an affordable rate. 

In my humble experince, here in the Northwest I hardly see any cams not made by Black Diamond or Metolius, or else Totems. If I see wild country or dragons I have questions. My point is, buy the kinds of cams that people use in the areas you'll climb - and apparently that may include tricams. I'd rather have 3 or 4 standard cams to start with, and keep for 20 plus years (I have cams that old that I've reslung a couple times) than 5 or 6 off-brand cams that may get you weird looks and that you'll eventually replace as you get better and/or more serious.  Plus if you end up partnering with someone who also has a partial rack, they'd rather use standard cams than the knock-off ones you found.

Also, it's entirely possible to start up a long pitch and place as much pro as you want, get low on pro, stop and lower down off a couple solid pieces in order to scavenge pieces from lower on the route, then climb up and finish the route. I know people love to say "when in doubt, run it out," but when you are working with less than a full rack and gaining experience, it's no crime and certainly not cowardly to give up on "the send" and instead stay safe and in reality gain more experience with placements by both placing and removing more gear. Nobody cares whether you sent that 5.8 by running it out, or had to lower down for more gear. Later on you can go back to that route with a full rack and better skills and get the send, if that really matters to you. 

TLDR: buy fewer cams of high quality that will last longer than cheap weird cams you may not want to use in a few years. Also, don't be afraid to start up long routes with full awareness your strategy is to be receptive to lowering off partway to retrieve cams from lower in order to re-use them.

Alan Rubin wrote:

Thanks for the information on Vortex.

Back to your original question. While I basically don't disagree with what Nick and Jacob wrote, I want to point out that there were about 7 or 8 years after the 'clean climbing revolution' in the late '60s/70s ( when nuts took over from pitons as the principal form of protection) before camming devices became available, so all we had were stoppers and hexes---and very many climbs were safely led. I believe that some climbers from that era, most notably Henry Barber ( Google him if you are not familiar with his name) still avoid using cams. There are also certain placements even today, where hexes work better than cams. So, through being very selective about the routes you climb, you could still find some that are appropriate for the rack you describe.

I'm not from the south and have only limited experience climbing there, but I believe that there are a number of areas with shorter climbs ( Sand Rock, AL comes to mind as a possibility) where you can practice placements at ground level, then maybe do a very easy lead or 2, while also having sport and top-rope options available as well. Obviously it would be best to take a trad or anchor building course, hire a guide for a day, or, if neither of the above is feasible, go with someone with more experience. 

That’s a good point about early clean climbing. 

In being selective about climbs, what are general attributes to look for, and can they be evaluated online with a platform like this without having to visit the spot? Is there a certain type of rock that tends to form more constrictions so that it’d be better for passive pro? Or would it be better to try and ask locals online?

I’ll definitely check out Sand Rock, especially since it’s a bit closer than other areas I had in mind, and it looks awesome.

bryans wrote:

In my humble experince, here in the Northwest I hardly see any cams not made by Black Diamond or Metolius, or else Totems. If I see wild country or dragons I have questions. My point is, buy the kinds of cams that people use in the areas you'll climb - and apparently that may include tricams. I'd rather have 3 or 4 standard cams to start with, and keep for 20 plus years (I have cams that old that I've reslung a couple times) than 5 or 6 off-brand cams that may get you weird looks and that you'll eventually replace as you get better and/or more serious.  Plus if you end up partnering with someone who also has a partial rack, they'd rather use standard cams than the knock-off ones you found.

Also, it's entirely possible to start up a long pitch and place as much pro as you want, get low on pro, stop and lower down off a couple solid pieces in order to scavenge pieces from lower on the route, then climb up and finish the route. I know people love to say "when in doubt, run it out," but when you are working with less than a full rack and gaining experience, it's no crime and certainly not cowardly to give up on "the send" and instead stay safe and in reality gain more experience with placements by both placing and removing more gear. Nobody cares whether you sent that 5.8 by running it out, or had to lower down for more gear. Later on you can go back to that route with a full rack and better skills and get the send, if that really matters to you. 

TLDR: buy fewer cams of high quality that will last longer than cheap weird cams you may not want to use in a few years. Also, don't be afraid to start up long routes with full awareness your strategy is to be receptive to lowering off partway to retrieve cams from lower in order to re-use them.

In terms of fewer cams, would a lineup of: .4, .5, 2, and 3 BD cams be a decent mix? What sizes would you recommend if not starting with a full rack? I found a decently priced ($200 including shipping for brand new) listing for those as a package on the buy/sell forum, and was thinking of either supplementing with with DMM Dragons to fill the gaps ($50 per cam in a couple listings) or finding some other listings on C4s to get the .75 and 1.

What do you consider any non BD, Metolius, or Totem companies to be sketch/off brand for cams? I’ve seen varying opinions on DMM cams and only have experience with BD gear, and no thumb loop does seem annoying.

I’ll definitely try to use to lowering tactic or just bailing if it gets sketchy, I hadn’t really thought of the lowering idea before so I appreciate the advice!

Branan Andreu wrote:

That’s a good point about early clean climbing. 

In being selective about climbs, what are general attributes to look for, and can they be evaluated online with a platform like this without having to visit the spot? Is there a certain type of rock that tends to form more constrictions so that it’d be better for passive pro? Or would it be better to try and ask locals online?

I’ll definitely check out Sand Rock, especially since it’s a bit closer than other areas I had in mind, and it looks awesome.

Hello Branan, As I wrote earlier, I only have limited experience climbing in the south, so can't give you much in the way of details. As you will see as you travel and gain more experience, even the characteristics of the same rock types can vary very much. For example, the sandstone  around Moab, UT is very different than that of Horseshoe Canyon Ranch in Arkansas. There can be significant differences even within the same geographic area, sometimes even at the same crag, so it is hard to generalize. However, at least from my limited experience, the cracks in the sandstone in the southeast tend not to be very uniform or consistent ( there are definitely some exceptions!!!) and often have constrictions or size-differentials that are good for passive pro placements.

Concerning specific climbs, sometimes you can find this information in route descriptions, either online or in guidebooks, or in comments in places such as here on MP---though rarely regarding suitability for using only passive pro. Clearly it is best to seek information, either online or in person, from locals, but you may well have to wait until you get to your chosen crag and 'eyeball' things. Especially if you go to a crag with short routes, ideally including some with easier grades, you should be able to get a sense of cracks that are 'wavy', so likely to offer appropriate placements ( probably best to avoid wide cracks and chimneys, even ones with easy grades, as they tend to be hard to protect).

One possibility, if your chosen crag offers the option, is to chose a route that looks appropriate, top-rope it first to check out the cracks, even putting in your pieces as you climb ( a 'mock lead') , test them ( or, much better, if possible, have someone with more experience critique them), then, once you feel good, clean the pieces. Then do the route again from the ground, but this time as a lead, placing your gear as you go. Many have done their first trad leads this way.

Branan Andreu wrote:

In terms of fewer cams, would a lineup of: .4, .5, 2, and 3 BD cams be a decent mix? What sizes would you recommend if not starting with a full rack? I found a decently priced ($200 including shipping for brand new) listing for those as a package on the buy/sell forum, and was thinking of either supplementing with with DMM Dragons to fill the gaps ($50 per cam in a couple listings) or finding some other listings on C4s to get the .75 and 1.

What do you consider any non BD, Metolius, or Totem companies to be sketch/off brand for cams? I’ve seen varying opinions on DMM cams and only have experience with BD gear, and no thumb loop does seem annoying.

I’ll definitely try to use to lowering tactic or just bailing if it gets sketchy, I hadn’t really thought of the lowering idea before so I appreciate the advice!

I thing getting those 4 cams for $200 is a score, assuming they are in decent shape. You might want to budget $10 or so each to get them re-slung, depending on their age and appearance. The great thing about Totems is they are sized to fit between each BD size, not duplicate their sizing, making them a great complement to BDs. For example a purple Totem is bigger than a .5 BD but smaller than a .75 BD. I don't know the ins and outs of each style cam, I'm only telling you what I see in the field. But if you go to Indian Creek everyone will be talking about and using BDs, not DMMs, and there must be a reason.

If you get further into lead climbing and go to trad areas you will quickly meet people who already have full racks, or have partial racks like you, and you'll often combine racks - so make sure you have quality standard gear rather than lots of weird stuff people will have second thoghts about. We form judgments quickly about people and for better or worse that can involve judging the gear they chose to buy.

I've likely already responded more than I should in this thread, but will add one more point, regarding cam choices.

Both Wild Country and DMM are long-established and well-respected companies---Wild Country Friends were the first commercially available camming devices and were the standard for years. As far as I'm aware ( I admit to not keeping very up-to-date on such things) both still make high-quality products. The crucial difference, I believe, is that both companies are based in the UK and, understandably, likely make gear that is focused on the needs of their local markets. The rock in the UK is, in general, very different from that found in the US ( particularly in the west)---there are very few of the long, continuous, same-size, parallel cracks as found at areas such as Indian Creek and Yosemite, for example. Often in the UK, placements are in 'random' , often odd-shaped, 'pods' and pockets, or in shallow horizontals, so requiring different types of cam design and functionality than what works best in those western areas. Given those factors, it is understandable why those who climb in the west are more likely to favor certain 'brands' over others---and in that regard Bryans is correct. Still, the southern US sandstone ( as well as the rock in many other eastern areas), is different from either of the above areas, so the appropriate rack choices also may vary. Once again, advice from experienced locals is the best option.

For the OP—you are much better off starting with passive gear anyway. You become more attuned to the nuances of the rock and the placements, and a socker nut is at least as good as a bolt, often better as you know the history of the gear and can visually inspect the placement. One of the problems that you see with newbies starting out focused on cams is that they often assume that almost any placement where they can get the cam to stick is bomber. Umm, no. Cams can shift, rotate, and walk about. Lowe did a study many years ago that determined that cams in less than optimal placements blew up to 50% of the time. Learn your craft first, nuts do that.
Example: A number of years ago (late ‘90s) a couple of kids from CO showed up at T-Wall looking for sport climbs, of which there were a few, but all very hard. They bristled and said they led 5.12 at Table Rock in CO, but we explained that a 5.12 Robinson route at tWall was a whole different thing. So they went down to Chatta, whipped out Daddy’s credit card, and bought a rack. All cams. The older one comes back and leads Goldenlocks, barely. His brother can’t get off the ground. They seemed to have no idea what to do next, so I offered to clean it.
Not a single placement would have held a fall, several wouldn’t have held body weight. Don’t know how that’s even possible on a splitter hand crack, but he managed. When I got to the top, his anchor was his last cam shoved under a loose block and a tied off, dead, <2” diameter pine sapling. I was semi pissed, I would have been really pissed if I thought there was any chance of me falling. I escorted him over to a rap station, and when we got down I strongly suggested that he should just leave and not come back until he had a clue. No one wants to be that guy.

Also, there is nothing sketch or off brand about Wild Country (yes, I still use my ‘80s rigid stem Friends—get off my lawn) or DMM, both of which have been making cams longer than BD. Maybe you need to broaden your experience. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

does anyone have any favorite areas that could be advisable for beginning in sport and trad climbing?

are you young? you mentioned an outward bound course, so if you are late teens/early 20's here's the advice (from someone who also started climbing in FL):

save up cash, don't spend it on cams, and go spend a month bumming around the red this upcoming summer just spending as much time on the sharp end as you can. you'll figure it all out from there. a ton of the flatland climbers of the world get their start there, and at this point you probably don't need cams as much as you need time climbing rock. extended trips allow you to increase your skill exponentially, whereas weekend trips from FL always felt like linear progression.

I have a soft spot for FL climbers so feel free to DM me if you want; been out of florida for 5 years now and spent a good chunk of time living/working as an amga spi in WNC. definitely not as travelled as Jim or Alan though!

Alan Rubin wrote:

I've likely already responded more than I should in this thread, but will add one more point, regarding cam choices.

Both Wild Country and DMM are long-established and well-respected companies---Wild Country Friends were the first commercially available camming devices and were the standard for years. As far as I'm aware ( I admit to not keeping very up-to-date on such things) both still make high-quality products. The crucial difference, I believe, is that both companies are based in the UK and, understandably, likely make gear that is focused on the needs of their local markets. The rock in the UK is, in general, very different from that found in the US ( particularly in the west)---there are very few of the long, continuous, same-size, parallel cracks as found at areas such as Indian Creek and Yosemite, for example. Often in the UK, placements are in 'random' , often odd-shaped, 'pods' and pockets, or in shallow horizontals, so requiring different types of cam design and functionality than what works best in those western areas. Given those factors, it is understandable why those who climb in the west are more likely to favor certain 'brands' over others---and in that regard Bryans is correct. Still, the southern US sandstone ( as well as the rock in many other eastern areas), is different from either of the above areas, so the appropriate rack choices also may vary. Once again, advice from experienced locals is the best option.

I really do appreciate all the advice I’ve gotten here even if I can’t respond to it all due to the limit so you definitely haven’t responded too much.

This is meant to be a response to your last two posts here.

As you had mentioned Southeastern sandstone being particularly inconsistent with cracks, I looked around some more and found that other very popular areas like Red River Gorge and TWall are also sandstone which gives me some optimism for passive pro being a possible option, especially if supplemented by some cams.

I’ve gotten a couple responses from local people here so I’ll try to talk to them more about their specific recommendations, but after some more thorough searching in the buy/sell forums I’ve been finding some decent deals on smaller sets of cams so maybe I’ll get .5-2 with some nuts and use the lowering strategy mentioned by someone else here.

With what you had mentioned about the regional differences in rock and how that may influence gear design, I could definitely see some features found in DMM dragons reflect what you described of UK rock. I hadn’t really considered that before, so it’s interesting to see how that plays out in the design process.

I’ll also definitely give the mock lead thing a go so I can get used to plugging and evaluating pro whilst climbing. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

I really do appreciate all the advice I’ve gotten here even if I can’t respond to it all due to the limit so you definitely haven’t responded too much.

This is meant to be a response to your last two posts here.

As you had mentioned Southeastern sandstone being particularly inconsistent with cracks, I looked around some more and found that other very popular areas like Red River Gorge and TWall are also sandstone which gives me some optimism for passive pro being a possible option, especially if supplemented by some cams.

I’ve gotten a couple responses from local people here so I’ll try to talk to them more about their specific recommendations, but after some more thorough searching in the buy/sell forums I’ve been finding some decent deals on smaller sets of cams so maybe I’ll get .5-2 with some nuts and use the lowering strategy mentioned by someone else here.

With what you had mentioned about the regional differences in rock and how that may influence gear design, I could definitely see some features found in DMM dragons reflect what you described of UK rock. I hadn’t really considered that before, so it’s interesting to see how that plays out in the design process.

I’ll also definitely give the mock lead thing a go so I can get used to plugging and evaluating pro whilst climbing. 

I have recently (past year or so) been getting into trad climbing specifically in the red river gorge in KY and the New River Gorge in WV. In my limited experience, passive gear seems a bit more difficult to place in the red river gorge. I have found myself preferring passive placements but definitely reach for my cams more often in the red.

In regards to what Alan said about some of the different brands, I primarily use wild country friends and I love them for the area. Having the doubled sling really helps provide enough extension for a lot of the single pitch routes in the areas I climb at and I would say at least in the New River you can find some face climbs that protect very well with cams within pods and the like, particularly at tan wall in the meadow river. While I haven’t used any DMM cams and only a few black diamond, I haven’t seen any reason why I’d want to go away from the friends. 

I’ve found that Ship Rock here in NC eats up passive gear more than most other NC crags. Hit me up if you’re ever looking for a partner in the area.