Setter dies while setting routes in a gym

John RB wrote:

A lift pays for itself pretty quickly given that you can set a route in half the time.  And I would guess it's safer (though I don't have any stats to back that up).

Gyms that don't have lifts probably aren't set up for them. You can't just roll some big ass lift onto your padded floor, plus you have to store the thing somewhere.

claudio ricardez wrote:

The lift idea sounds great for safety, but I'm wondering if route setters prefer to be able to try out the moves as they set the route. I very rarely go to gyms so I am not sure on what route setting practices are usually used. Just thinking off the top of my head. I assume if the setter already knows where all the holds will go, that would work. But if some prefer to make the route up or change things as they set the holds, the lift idea may not be preferred. The flooring of most gyms is often uneven and is made up of hard foam, or something similar, which would cause another problem for the lift to get around on.

I can't speak for all of them but setting off of a lift is much preferred. No manual hauling of holds, not in a harness, easier to move around, etc. You get pretty good at setting a skeleton and then forerun. From what I've seen someone foreruns and someone tweaks it from the lift at the same time.

anyone here ever actually brought a scissor lift inside?  maybe you guys are talking about some other kind of lift? We got a scissor lift into a big barn style restaurant we were building. It was a big and sketchy deal getting it in and out without destroying the big brand new Marvin sliding doors... 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

One of the big OSHA loop holes is ladders. You can do all kinds of sketchy shit with ladders and not need the fall protection but if you have nice solid roof brackets on the roof with good solid planks you can't be on them without fall protection.  Same thing goes for a flat roof or a super casual 3 pitch roof. cant step on that sucker without either fall protection or a guard rail around the whole thing but you can climb a 40ft ladder which is super scary to set up and work off of.  this is the reason that many roofing companies work completely from ladder hooks. Faster and less regulated. 

This is sooo true. A couple weekends ago, I TRS’d an 80’ ish foot cliff, then the next day climbed maybe 15’ up a ladder to change an exterior light and I was completely sketched out. Hahaha.

Ladders are number one OSHA for causing workplace injury. Nick is absolutely right that its wild what you can do with a ladder, but other relatively tame things are not allowed to fly without some fall pro, or safety.

Scissor lift, boom lift, articulating boom lifts, etc etc....I have used them all. Scissor lifts are not ideal for settig because you cant just roll em on the padded floors to get hem into ideal positioning. Boom lifts are much much better, with articulating lifts being even better. These allow you to park the machine and work in 3d from solid ground away from the padded floors. These are also much more expensive and depending on height of gym, can be a PITA to get into a building as ove you get to a certain size/reach they are huge machines.

This style would be best for gyms.

Tone Loc wrote:

This is sooo true. A couple weekends ago, I TRS’d an 80’ ish foot cliff, then the next day climbed maybe 15’ up a ladder to change an exterior light and I was completely sketched out. Hahaha.

Did you TRS the walk to the anchors to set up? No? OSHA says you should’ve been waaaay more sketched out doing that than whatever you were doing on your ladder.

That was the whole point of the post.

Mr Rogers wrote:

This style would be best for gyms.

From https://www.thresholdclimbing.com/route-setting 

Ideally the facility would be designed from the start to get that awesome looking lift in there. 

amarius wrote:

From https://www.thresholdclimbing.com/route-setting 

Exactly.

...But Frank OSHA would have some things to say here.

Slim Chuffer wrote:

Gyms that don't have lifts probably aren't set up for them. You can't just roll some big ass lift onto your padded floor, plus you have to store the thing somewhere.

It's often not that hard to cut up a padded floor into modules and you can store a lift in the parking lot if you have a loading door.  (Most gyms do, in my experience).  I've seen gyms that retrofit for lifts.

 If you have floors that are not at street level, then you're screwed.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Ladders are number one OSHA for causing workplace injury. Nick is absolutely right that its wild what you can do with a ladder, but other relatively tame things are not allowed to fly without some fall pro, or safety.

Scissor lift, boom lift, articulating boom lifts, etc etc....I have used them all. Scissor lifts are not ideal for settig because you cant just roll em on the padded floors to get hem into ideal positioning. Boom lifts are much much better, with articulating lifts being even better. These allow you to park the machine and work in 3d from solid ground away from the padded floors. These are also much more expensive and depending on height of gym, can be a PITA to get into a building as ove you get to a certain size/reach they are huge machines.

This style would be best for gyms.

Statistically speaking ladders and aerial lifts have higher accident rates than Rope Access.

Aerial lifts and Rope Access or any proper single rope technique equivalent have the same problem. They all cost a lot of money in comparison to the alternative of just grabbing a GriGri and figuring it out on the fly. No rescue plan, no JSA, likely little PPE, no formal training.

I was at a gym on the East coast who set with a lift. There was no way to use the emergency release if it failed due to obstructions below it. However, they also had no idea how they would get someone down in a rescue scenario, the person in the lift wasn’t tied off, no helmet being used and nothing was tied off.  You have a slew of OSHA related potentials that kill/hurt far more people than any proper rope technique equivalent.

End of the day is climbing gyms squeak by on regulations and workplace accidents because it’s an obscure place where you are doing these activities without much oversight and the owners are also untrained in these areas.

imagine explaining to every gym they need to spend the $ on general industry work at height and implement safety programs for such? 

I used a lift for setting a bit and they kind of freaked me out. They were great for quickly stripping a wall and for maybe quickly throwing up a rough route, but I much preferred and felt a lot safer with a good rope, a jumar and grigri with stopper knots for fine tuning. With the lift I just ended up doing more sketchy stuff when nobody was looking. Using climbing gear and techniques that I was familiar with from outdoors setting, I had my protocol down and followed it  I can't imaging setting with a full osha approved set up. What a pain in the ass that would be. That said, definitely a lot of sketch stuff would go on back in the era when I was actively setting. I am surprised there haven't been more accidents, particularly people walking below a not properly closed off work space and getting clunked in the head.

Matt H wrote:

Doing things a new way is always sketchy at first its a poor reason to not move in a general direction of safer practices.  Ive worked from ropes and lifts (not setting), and yeah lifts feel sketchy at first, theres play and movement in the arm and basket and whatnot.  You don’t have to make the decision to do sketchy shit when nobody is looking though, you could be safe for your own safety’s sake and the peoples sake in the surrounding area like you said.  Maybe it takes a few minutes longer, its not a big deal, i doubt you have an equity stake in the gym or anything anyways!  I wouldnt forget whose life is on the line and whose eye is on the bottom line.   And for the previous commenter, yes, i could imagine telling gyms they need to adhere to safety protocols…it seems ridiculous because theyve never been subject to them in the past but from the other side it would feel ridiculous that they were never subject to them in the past.  Maybe its time for the industry to grow tf up.  

Edit: also poor training and practices leading to lift accidents doesnt really discount their efficacy.  Yes, you have to use them safely too, and not cut the corners when nobody is looking

Full arm out on 120' boom.... is it ever surprising how much the tiniest lateral movement makes the bucket end move soooo much. Make sure that thing is in turtle mode is no joke when they get big and your way out from your pivot!
One poor soul get bucked hard out of the basket not understanding the physics on that 120'er......the further the bucket/basket is away from center pivot (horizontally) means exponential/movement for the user. Luckily wasn't injured too bad, but could have been straight out of training video, dude flew outta there. In the end he said he never had used one bigger than 45' and said it all dawned on him in mid flight his mistake. (PPE FTW!)

I have my hands full using a 40ft lift trying not to ding the house etc. can't even fathom a 120 ft lift . I didn't even know they existed. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I have my hands full using a 40ft lift trying not to ding the house etc. can't even fathom a 120 ft lift . I didn't even know they existed. 

210ft is the biggest thats not a semi truck style crane/lift! Snorkel lift makes it. Outrageous. I would be puckered for sure.

Awhile back world class climber Scott Cosgrove was injured this way. While working as a rigger on a movie set in an aircraft hanger in Southern California, Scott fell from a crane over 30 feet directly onto a concrete floor. He was very seriously injured with multiple compound fractures, including a major facial and skull fracture. 

Just a consideration to throw out there, I don’t think it would be possible for the mentioned Genie or similar lift to have been used in the gym in subject. It’s located in a fraction of an old mill building throughout multiple floors. And as mentioned it consists of an elevator shaft with limited entry. I know nothing about using these types of lifts in confined spaces, but if we’re letting our imaginations run wild…

Christian Donkey wrote:

Just a consideration to throw out there, I don’t think it would be possible for the mentioned Genie or similar lift to have been used in the gym in subject. It’s located in a fraction of an old mill building throughout multiple floors. And as mentioned it consists of an elevator shaft with limited entry. I know nothing about using these types of lifts in confined spaces, but if we’re letting our imaginations run wild…

Hey Christian, I use these machines professionally, here are some atrium lift that fit through a standard doorway and can go up in an elevator. It is capable of going above the height of the climbing walls in that gym. It is good to be imaginative because people are often surprised how much tech can evolve without them noticing.

I think there's a place for both rope-based routesetting and using lifts, they are equally safe when trained under supervision, equipment is selected right and skills are practiced consistently.

CW wrote:

Not to add fuel to the speculative fire but as someone who worked and set with Lee for multiple years I figured I’d add some personal insight. At Vertical Dreams we always used static ropes for setting, typically using two ropes fixed to two independent ground anchors. Lee was always a big advocate for safety so I can’t imagine a scenario where he would deviate too far from that standard.

Like everyone else I have no idea how this accident actually happened, but I do think it would be best to wait and see what comes out of whatever investigations may happen before sharing our own theories about this incident.

 The OSHA report indicates that this individual was attached to a single fixed line that was attached to a 3rd party installed, unrated fixture above the rated climbing anchors. You can see, in this photo from Vertical Dreams on the route I believe this occurred on, that someone has attached a equalized anchor using cord to the railing at the top of the route.

This to me unfortunately sounds like a case of complacency, in the face of the facts that the status quo was to use two fixed ground anchors. Apologies again for the losses to the loved ones and friends of Lee. Complacency kills, and I write this only so it can be another sobering reminder of those facts.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Those are just more violations that they have levied fines, not tied to the fall, just discovered in the investigation so they hit em with it. I have dealt with OSHA investigations, so understandably confusing.

No, a knot failure was attributed to the fall. He was roped up. From the report:
At 1:30 p.m. on May 21, 2024, Employee #1 was setting a new route on an indoor climbing wall, which involved installing new holds. While climbing near the top of the wall, the knot securing the end of the climbing rope to a railing failed, causing Employee #1 to fall approximately 40 feet to the floor below. The employee sustained fatal blunt force trauma upon impact with the floor. The employee was killed.

Not true. As an entertainment/aerial Rigger/Technical Director, much of my work literally falls into a grey area outside OSHA. That is a major part of my job....to make lawyers and govt. agencies happy because regulations do not apply.

This is incorrect, every fine issued in this investigation was directly related to Lee's death.

https://www.osha.gov/ords/imis/establishment.inspection_detail?id=1749609.015

Citation 1 - a) On or about May 21, 2024, employees performing routesetting on an indoor climbing wall were not protected from a fall of approximately forty feet where personal fall protection meeting the requirements of 29 CFR 1910.140 was not utilized. AKA an individual suffered a fatal fall of approximately 40 feet because they did not have appropriate fall protection.

Citation 2a -  a) On or about May 21, 2024, the employer did not perform a PPE hazard assessment for routesetting activities on the climbing wall which exposed employees to fall and struck by hazards. AKA the employer did not follow required procedures to identify and mitigate the circumstances directly leading to the individual falling.
Citation 2 b - a) On or about May 21, 2024, employees were exposed to struck by hazards from falling objects where protective helmets were not required to be worn when employees were routesetting on the same wall face above one another. AKA a secondary individual routesetting below the primary individual was injured by tools, holds, and equipment that fell with primary individual.

I think we're looking at directly related  differently. Of course everything tied to the accident is related to an extent.

The violations are not related in the sense.... lets say rope in use that failed and was found to be like home depot paper rope that clearly is not meeting standard, or the anchor he tied to failed or was not up to standard, etc. The employer is being fined for not having SOP that was up to OSHA regs, so not related in that sense....

But I absolutely see how you can read it the way you present it.
I can't say i'm the most eloquent human out there. Apologies I was clear as mud, and maybe still is.