Roof pins

Recently I have been looking at an aid route at a local cave that I am 99% certain would be hammer aid. The scary part about this cave is that I think the crux would wind up being knifeblades into a completely horizontal matrix of chossy garbage (see photo below). 

I could be wrong about the quality of the rock, but I am almost 100% sure its choss, as most of the rest of the cave is absolutely littered with the stuff. Anyway, I was wondering how well knifeblades hold in stuff like that. I've heard horizontal pins are pretty solid (see below) with the arrow being the direction of pull.

but I'm concerned about pins placed like this

Would these things even hold body weight??? Do you guys think I'm going to be wandering into A3/A4 territory? Im also wondering if its ok if I place a good bolt if I run into this grade, or if I should keep the route bolt free and scary as hell. Id also love to hear if certain types of pins hold in roofs better than others, or if I should just cast off into the unknown and get annihilated. Any and all advice is appreciated!

Thanks!!

Pecker pitons have totally changed the aid climbing game, in some cases changing A4 pitches into A2.  They will certainly work here!

Think about a knifeblade driven straight up.  What's holding it in?  Not much, right?  A bit of compression on some steel? When I soloed Lunar Eclipse, I remember taking a fall on the Devil's Brow roof when a fixed KB driven straight up into a crack pulled on me.  

When we climbed Genesis, the second or third pitch above the "start" of the route to the right of the base of Texas Flake is a horizontal traverse with pins driven straight up into a roof. The roof sticks out about a foot, but the pins are driven straight up. Must have been scary AF driving KB's up there on the FA.

Enter the new peckers, especially the big ones.  Tie a racking-cleaning loop through the upper hole in the piton [or get Skot Richards to sew you a sling!] and now you have a bomber pin that will hold you in a placement "driven upwards". But are you really driving the pin upwards?  Nope - you're driving it upwards at a 45-degree angle. Look for a narrowing in the crack, and whack that pecker upwards on a 45-degree angle, so that when you weight it, the pointy bit of the pin that you've driven up is behind the narrowing, and VOILA! You have a bomber pin placement.  

If you're nailing into choss, consider using bigger peckers.  I bet you find it fairly straightforward.  Report back here.  ;) 

P.S.  Yer....

Just gotta drink a couple beers b4 you send buddy ;)

Peter Zabrok wrote:

Pecker pitons have totally changed the aid climbing game, in some cases changing A4 pitches into A2.  They will certainly work here!

If you're nailing into choss, consider using bigger peckers.  I bet you find it fairly straightforward.  Report back here.  ;) 

P.S.  Yer....

IM GONNA DIE!!!!

 To Parker: How many beers are considered aid brah? if I drink enough do I eventually free A3?

To Kevin De Weese: You should be worried lol. I get what you're saying though, everything either will hold a fall or wont, its the runout between good pieces that determines the grade. I will inevitably wind up getting in over my head and bailing on a couple sketchy pins. As Peter Zabrok inferred, I'm gonna die!

I guess I'm really asking if drilling bolts on a scary (for me) FA is ethical. 

thanks for the advice!!

That’s kinda your call. If you think the route is great because it’s scary then don’t bolt it, it’ll defeat the purpose. If you think it’d be really fun and help you progress as a climber but your unsure of the ADL (actually danger level) slam a 5”ss bolt or 2 in to keep you off the deck. Others will see the value in it one way or the other, and hopefully get to enjoy it as well for quite a while. Hell maybe it goes clean after some traffic. Thing is someone will be pissed off if you get out of bed today, and if you don’t it’ll bother someone else. If it’s unclimbed rock enjoy it, as long as your not bolting a 1/2” crack or chipping holds you’ll be doing the right thing by making it as enjoyable of a route as possible, weather that’s by preserving the raw experience or making it an inviting adventure. 

KB’s still hold when nailed vertically. Take a good selection and bounce test like a mother fucker. Yell at that thing to get out of the crack. You’re hyped. If you have a belayer bring a tag line, that could be a six beer line right there. Don’t forget a piss bottle and a lawn chair. You’re definitely gonna wanna have some movies downloaded for your belayer. Don’t be afraid to be tapping that rock with your little hammer poo

Matthew Hoff wrote:

IM GONNA DIE!!!!

I guess I'm really asking if drilling bolts on a scary (for me) FA is ethical. 

thanks for the advice!!

Never place a bolt you aren’t willing to pull. Sometimes people make mistakes, but they never get flamed if they admit it right away.

That line looks awful. I give you permission to climb it and have whatever learning experience you need to have.

If you go up with the drill, you might place a bolt.  If you go up without the drill, you definitely won’t. Split the difference and leave the drill on the ground tied to the end of 600 feet of tagline.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Before you start deciding whether to bolt a nailing line, maybe go out and do the work to learn how to nail, learn what nailing can do and how far you can push their pitons when nailing so that you have at least a modicum of respect for the rock before you even think of a drill bit. 

Aww c’mon dad! 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

I'm going to have to add to me previous post which was made under the assumption that anyone asking questions about drilling on an FA of a route would have the experience required to make informed decisions.
This statement in your initial post is VERY concerning in regards to having the proper experience with bolting a nailing first ascent.

Sir, if you don't have the nailing experience with pitons such that you've only "heard" that pitons placed how they're intended to be placed are "pretty solid", you DO NOT have the experience to go up onto a new route and decide whether a competent aid climber would need a bolt or not. That you would consider going up and bolting on a line BEFORE you actually practice using the gear you intend to use for such a route is ridiculous. It becomes even more concerning that after you say that you "hammered a shitload of pins instead of doing it clean like last time, super fun and nailed the shit out of it, placed pins everywhere, I think I sank 4 in total, two down low and two up top" in your tick of The Chopper

I'll give it to ya, you definitely do your research! 

EDIT TO ADD: the reason I drove a shitload of pins is because the route is supposed to help with nailing practice. Read the description by Colby Wayment.

that you still feel the need to say that you've only "heard" that a piton nailed how they're intended to be placed is "pretty solid"

I have only done one other roof aid line, and there the pins were placed in a horizontal crack, not a vertical one. I feel good about pin placements such as those in the chopper and on Schoolroom Roof, and am very happy with their potential to hold falls. However, as previously stated, I have no experience in completely vertical roofs. 

I can guarantee that most aid climbers when they start out nailing are often afraid for their life while standing on securely A1 placements precisely because those placements are new to them. I've seen aid climbers new to nailing that will nail a string of #3 peckers all the way to the hilt and then speak of it as if they were in "A4 territory" due to the 10' string of "marginal" placements they had to stand on. I've seen other aid climbers with experience place ten #1 peckers in a row and call their 30' shakefest, "NTB, A2+ at most" The best part about those two situations is that they were the same climber, the only difference was the experience they had using the tools of the trade. 

Before you start deciding whether to bolt a nailing line, maybe go out and do the work to learn how to nail, learn what nailing can do and how far you can push their pitons when nailing 

My big issue here is that I don't have much experience, as previously stated, in vertical roofs. Very few of these exist in my area, and those that do, do not have vertical seams as seen in Utah Cave. If you could give me a couple examples of routes where I could learn this skill I would love to climb them, as I definitely need the experience. 

so that you have at least a modicum of respect for the rock before you even think of a drill bit. 

I apologize if I have ruffled your feathers. However, I will assure you that the reason I started this thread was so that I don't go up there like a dumbass and grid bolt a potentially good (and safe) aid line. I try my best not to act in unethical ways and keep the rock as pristine as possible. Obviously, according to you (and I'm sure many others), I am not doing well enough. Again, I apologize if I offended you. I'm just trying to learn. 

Thanks, Matt

Looks like a scary dolomite/limestone roof system! I’d be concerned about the continuity of the rock making up that roof, I would echo what Jeff Luton said about tapping all around on the rock and listening to get a really good idea if things are connected.

If you can find some SMC shallow angles, they are the ticket in this sort of stone and situation. If you find them unavailable, you can thin down some angles lengthwise, but it’s labor intensive.

It’s simple in my mind, If a bolt is going to keep you off the deck and/or injury free slam that sucker in. You can always remove and patch a bolt hole a lot easier than it is to climb out of a wheelchair.

I’m rooting for you.

Get off MP and go do it. Have an adventure. Figure it out. Have fun.

Well folks I guess Ive come to a conclusion. Im going to work on my aid through the winter and spring and see if I'm up to the challenge next summer. While I dont like the way Kevin explained his point of view, he brings up some bulletproof points. I need far more aid experience than I have now in order to determine what exactly Im getting into, and Ive seen enough chopped bolts around Ogden to know that I dont want to be contributing to that problem. I will also see if I can better equip myself as far as gear goes, so that when summer rolls around I wont have to worry about running out of beaks or knifeblades. Ill also see if I can try to clear out the choss and loose rock on the approach pitch into the cave and put an actual two bolt anchor up there so nobody gets hurt by falling rock or a non-redundant anchor. Who knows, in the meantime maybe someone else will put up a route through the cave that I can test myself on. I do appreciate all of the people who chimed in here, and given their points of view and advice. Ill be sure to come back to review this thread when I prepare to go up to the cave again. 

Thank you for your support, criticism, and information.

-Matt

Don’t even get me started on heads 

Matthew Hoff wrote:

Well folks I guess Ive come to a conclusion. Im going to work on my aid through the winter and spring and see if I'm up to the challenge next summer. While I dont like the way Kevin explained his point of view, he brings up some bulletproof points. I need far more aid experience than I have now in order to determine what exactly Im getting into, and Ive seen enough chopped bolts around Ogden to know that I dont want to be contributing to that problem. I will also see if I can better equip myself as far as gear goes, so that when summer rolls around I wont have to worry about running out of beaks or knifeblades. Ill also see if I can try to clear out the choss and loose rock on the approach pitch into the cave and put an actual two bolt anchor up there so nobody gets hurt by falling rock or a non-redundant anchor. Who knows, in the meantime maybe someone else will put up a route through the cave that I can test myself on. I do appreciate all of the people who chimed in here, and given their points of view and advice. Ill be sure to come back to review this thread when I prepare to go up to the cave again. 

Thank you for your support, criticism, and information.

-Matt

I will echo Kevin. Practice on cross piles and non established areas. Place and cop an etrier and bounce test this will help you understand placements and rock types. You can also do short sections with a top rope (solo if needed). This is what I did when I wanted to climb and didn’t have a partner. Lots of solo practice time. Place a test , you will be surprised what works! You will dial in what you like and don’t like. Also search old gear for some old school stuff that worked well but are not made. SMC short shallow angles, Leeper Z’s ( Grivel does make some), Leeper antipiton, pin stacks, 

go practice!

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Having put up my share of bigwall nailing routes and messing up more than one awesome section by drilling when later versions of myself would have been able to get through with better /more creative techniques, I know that the more you hate yourself now for practicing, the less you'll hate yourself later for not practicing. 

I appreciate your input. You have a hell of a lot more experience than I do lol. Thank God I didn't do any intense bolting quite yet. I've been hesitant to put up sport routes for this exact reason. I think taking my time and working on my aid (as you said) should work well.

And for my experience, I practiced on boulders aid single pitch aid climbs and established bigwall routes for years before I even tried FAING and there's still sections of my FA'S that keep me up at night hating myself for touching my drill to the rock. 

Funny enough, I was planning to go to Zion to try my hand at walling earlier this year, but ended up bailing due to rain. Hopefully more experience from routes put up by notable bigwall/aid climbers there will help me find my ethic is as far as bolts goes (hopefully with as few bolts and rivets as possible). Ideally one day I will gain enough experience such that I can put up routes for my friends/community that have very little (if any) damaged rock on them!

To Jc5462:

I have a couple of aiders and pins, including a pair of leeper Z's. I have not seen (yet) a way to use leeper Zs  in place of clean gear (although I'm sure I'll eventually find a place). I definitely do not have a Leeper Antiption (they're fucking wild!!!) but I'll see what I can get my grubby little mitts on. I will say I do try to use whatever old gear I have (the idea is that if people could climb 5.12 trad on rigid stems and nuts, I can climb 5.10 on them). And like I said, I have all winter!

I'm psyched to develop my skill and become a better climber!!!!!

-Matt

All the advice is to practice on meaningless choss nobody cares about...the cave in question looks ideal for that lol. 

You may actually die though.

As you can observe years of beating your peaker into shallow dirty cracks can leave one a bit complacent with how they have chosen to spend time climbing. You have been warned.