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Backing off on one bolt

Greg R · · Durango CO · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 10
old5ten wrote:

not taking any sides here, but be aware that a lot of european crags have only one bolt/lower off at the anchor...

When they do this, is it the same size/quality of bolts used for the climb? Any back story on why they are departing from what has been the norm. 

old5ten · · Sunny Slopes + Berkeley, CA… · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 5,621
Greg R wrote:

When they do this, is it the same size/quality of bolts used for the climb? Any back story on why they are departing from what has been the norm. 

generally the same size/quality/age of bolts.  i wouldn't say they are departing from the norm, but rather that they aren't necessarily conforming with what american climbers consider to be the norm.  there's also a big variety in terms of crags within one small region (let's say arco), larger region (eg northern italy), country, etc. 

the views on MP are very (not surprisingly) centered around american climbing and many american climbers have little experience climbing overseas.  our norms, ethics, etc. aren't necessarily the same as those in outer countries, regions...  even in the US there is a lot of variety in terms of how we approach climbing, bolting, anchors, etc. and what some people perceive to be the norm and others don't.

old5ten · · Sunny Slopes + Berkeley, CA… · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 5,621

the pic below shows what a (rather common) anchor in europe (i’ve encountered these in austria, france, and italy) looks like.  

at the ‘loewenzaehne’ near schuttannen, austria

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

On single bolt anchors in Europe.  As the picture kinda shows, we are not talking small bolts in poor rock. Some can be six inches deep. This must be as good as two hand drilled pieces, I'm guess a lot better. A related question is I guess combined mode failure. If the same person drills and possibly glues both bolts in the same small area of rock then whatever causes one to failure might apply to the second. This isn't really a backup in normal terms. Age then becomes the issue. Again, it might make more sense to use steel with larger cross sectional area and drill deeper.

Ryan Penrod · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2023 · Points: 0
David Coley wrote:

On single bolt anchors in Europe.  As the picture kinda shows, we are not talking small bolts in poor rock. Some can be six inches deep. This must be as good as two hand drilled pieces, I'm guess a lot better. A related question is I guess combined mode failure. If the same person drills and possibly glues both bolts in the same small area of rock then whatever causes one to failure might apply to the second. This isn't really a backup in normal terms. Age then becomes the issue. Again, it might make more sense to use steel with larger cross sectional area and drill deeper.

I assume you haven't seen many American anchors? The ones at the popular sport crags around here are built to withstand a nuclear war. They are the same sized bolts as the picture, or usually even beefier 1/2" bolts, about 1-1.5' apart with a giant burly chain between them and a nice big ring to clip instead of a cheap spring link. I doubt any of the anchors around my area, with the exception of designated wilderness areas where power tools are not allowed, are hand drilled.

https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe-316-traditional-anchor.html

Just looking at that $5 spring link makes me cringe.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

I've hung off, hauled and slept off many a hand drilled anchor on El Cap, without concern. Hence I'm not concerned about a single glue in that was drilled to twice the depth. Agreed about naff clip though. 

Nathan P · · Conifer, CO · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 436
David Coley wrote:

On single bolt anchors in Europe.  As the picture kinda shows, we are not talking small bolts in poor rock. Some can be six inches deep. This must be as good as two hand drilled pieces, I'm guess a lot better. A related question is I guess combined mode failure. If the same person drills and possibly glues both bolts in the same small area of rock then whatever causes one to failure might apply to the second. This isn't really a backup in normal terms. Age then becomes the issue. Again, it might make more sense to use steel with larger cross sectional area and drill deeper.

100% agree, David. We’re talking 60kn glue-ins that are twice as strong and twice as simple as the standard mechanical bolt here in the US. Look at these in the 12mm size: https://hownot2.com/products/meteora-p-shaped-glue-in-bolt?variant=48019550110011

And most sets of anchor bolts in the US are not 1 - 1.5 feet apart - they are more like 6 - 10 inches. So if one bolt fails, the cone of compression will likely cause the other to fail as well. That said - I do really like having a more robust lowering / wear point than the single clip posted above… 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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