What are the widely accepted "rules" for starting and sending a sport climb?

If there is a no hands rest, or large ledge on the route it is widely accepted that any rest over a minute downgrades your send. If your going for the red point and you rest for too long, it downgrades it to a "one hang"

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Actually no. No one has given a shit about the difference between red and pink points since the 90s...

I disagree with that. With so many decades between the present day and the days of yo-yoing, placing gear on lead is more of a gold standard today than it ever has been. On the other hand, pinkpointing on bolts is absolutely meaningless. I'd even say that many, probably most, climbers accept a proper redpoint if you place clean gear on lead and leave draws on fixed gear.

Michael Vaill wrote:

I disagree with that. With so many decades between the present day and the days of yo-yoing, placing gear on lead is more of a gold standard today than it ever has been. On the other hand, pinkpointing on bolts is absolutely meaningless. I'd even say that many, probably most, climbers accept a proper redpoint if you place clean gear on lead and leave draws on fixed gear.

This is one of the defining style differences between sport and trad climbing, there is no such thing as pinkpointing in sport climbing. Or more specifically, the pinkpoint distinction doesn't apply to sport climbing because the bolts are the fixed gear, not the prehung draws. Also the fact that essentially all cutting edge sport climbing is done on prehung draws, the community consensus is that prehung draws do not detract from style in sport climbing, and that the term "redpoint" was developed in the sport climbing context, all contributes to the lack of a pinkpoint distinction.

Trad climbing obviously requires placing clean gear on lead to claim redpoint in good style. No argument there.

Mike-Mayhem wrote:

If there is a no hands rest, or large ledge on the route it is widely accepted that any rest over a minute downgrades your send. If your going for the red point and you rest for too long, it downgrades it to a "one hang"

So every hard route with a no hands kneebar should be downgraded? And most of the routes in Flatanger haven't actually been sent, and have only been one (or two or three?) hung? It seems to me that the "downgrade" is just baked into the grade, because it would obviously be harder if you didn't take advantage of the rest. Limiting yourself to 60 seconds on a good rest is even more contrived than worrying about the height of a cheater block at the start of a sport climb.  And in no world is that opinion "widely accepted," if anything it is more fringe than worrying about prehung draws on sport routes.

The red point/pink point disagreement is always sure to bunch the panties of some fragile egos :)

James Moffatt wrote:

This is one of the defining style differences between sport and trad climbing, there is no such thing as pinkpointing in sport climbing. 

Yes exactly! I’ve honestly never heard of pinkpointing a sport climb. And even in trad climbing in situ draws on fixed gear doesn’t qualify a send as a pink point.

Also to turn this back to the original topic: I think you should climb any route you want to climb any way you want to climb it. Following these “rules” only affects your ability to compare your send to other people’s sends. Since almost all hard sport climbs are sent with pre-hung draws, climbing this way makes for an easy comparison. If a route was established with contrived beta avoiding an obvious sit-down rest, then you have to decide whether you want to compare your send to that send or not. Same with cheater stacks, how far from the bolts you climb, etc, etc. Do what’s most fun for you, the only reason to do otherwise is so you can compare yourself to others. Some comparison and resulting competition can be fun but usually, as the saying goes, comparison is the enemy of happiness!

Michael Vaill wrote:

Yes exactly! I’ve honestly never heard of pinkpointing a sport climb. And even in trad climbing in situ draws on fixed gear doesn’t qualify a send as a pink point.

I absolutely consider pre-placed gear/draws a pink point, especially on a mixed gear/bolts route, and I know I'm not the only one. I've also never really understood why some people get so upset about noting the distinction. 

It's just old news. We All know that it's easier with the draws hung but we simply don't care. We also don't care that you telle.

Brandon R wrote:

I absolutely consider pre-placed gear/draws a pink point, especially on a mixed gear/bolts route, and I know I'm not the only one. I've also never really understood why some people get so upset about noting the distinction. 

It’s the history of the term. Pinkpoint originated with rough and tough ‘Murican traditionalists to disparage wimpy effeminate europhile sportos. I heard it first in the very early 90s.

Pink pointing changed to red pointing with lots of folks when gyms started popping up like weeds,  the term is definitely still widely used outside of the gym scene. 

Also one of the oldest gym jokes has to do with "the pink one in the corner" go figure. I say let's make pink cool again, there is no shame in color. A send is a send.

Frank Stein wrote:

It’s the history of the term. Pinkpoint originated with rough and tough ‘Murican traditionalists to disparage wimpy effeminate europhile sportos. I heard it first in the very early 90s.

While I'm personally not offended by the history of or the term itself, I guess I can see why some could be. I always just thought pink was used because it's like a watered-down red, not because it's effeminate, but I'd support a different word to describe it if needed. In any case, I think that if we're going to use words to describe the style of our ascents (RP, flash, OS, TR, etc), then it's quite contrived/arbitrary, and maybe even purposefully deceptive, to remove just this one descriptor and not the others. I have no ill will towards people that climb in these other styles (I do them all myself too), but I appreciate having a distinction for starting at the bottom of a route with your rope and all of your gear on your harness. I find it aesthetically pleasing, and also the least contrived way to climb a route that already has permanent fixed gear (bolts, pitons, etc). 

Brandon R wrote:

.................. I appreciate having a distinction for starting at the bottom of a route with your rope and all of your gear ....................... I find it aesthetically pleasing, and also the least contrived way to climb a route that already has permanent fixed gear (bolts, pitons, etc). 

Yeah. At least equally aesthetically pleasing is with NO GEAR in situ at all, for some of us. It is the essence of TRADitional climbing. 

I have been enjoying this thread. Most contributors have valid points, in spite of the disagreements. 

James Moffatt wrote:

This is one of the defining style differences between sport and trad climbing, there is no such thing as pinkpointing in sport climbing. Or more specifically, the pinkpoint distinction doesn't apply to sport climbing because the bolts are the fixed gear, not the prehung draws. Also the fact that essentially all cutting edge sport climbing is done on prehung draws, the community consensus is that prehung draws do not detract from style in sport climbing, and that the term "redpoint" was developed in the sport climbing context, all contributes to the lack of a pinkpoint distinction.

Trad climbing obviously requires placing clean gear on lead to claim redpoint in good style. No argument there.

This argument reminds me of court cases (a certain ex-president comes to mind) that get tossed or delayed based on procedural technicalities rather than their merit... highly unsatisfying. Furthermore, it would also necessitate the removal of the term "redpoint" as a distinction in trad/gear protected routes. 

And as if this slope couldn't get any slipperier, what if someone raps into a bolted face climb with say 10 bolts in 100 feet, but pre-places long slings with multiple heights of clipping options on each bolt, such that you could clip half way between each bolt... is that a redpoint in your world? That idea may seem silly to us now, but the "community" is trending in this direction. 

IMO, having a redpoint/pinkpoint distinction is a whole lot simpler than the can of worms opened up by pretending it doesn't exist at all.

There is a distinction sport climbing between a red point and a pink point, but it is a distinction that only matters to those to whom it matters.

I never think of a red/pink point distinction in trad climbing. It is either a trad lead, or a trad lead with pre-placed gear. There are, of course, plenty of trad routes out there with occasional ( and some with quite a few) pieces of permanent fixed gear---how do those who 'weigh' such things categorize such routes?

Eric Craig wrote:

I am not sure the pink and red point terms were coined in the pure sport climbing world. They definitely appeared at the beginning of sport climbing and in conjunction with working non-fixed gear routes, which were not, at that time, "traditional ". I am talking mid 1980's. I recall a glossary of those and other terms being published in either Rock and Ice or Climbing magazines. For reference, the first climbing gym in North America opened in 1987, in Seattle. I am not saying this is particularly important, but it seems that actual history would shed light on this topic. Maybe  someone from the mid 80's sport climbing scene could shed some light on this. That's not me. I was happily trad climbing nearly every day 6 months a year then,  and skiing the rest of the year. 

This is completely mistaken. The term “redpoint” originated in the Frankenjura in the late ‘70s. Kurt Albert, Heinz Zak et. al. painted a red dot at the bottom of previously aided routes that they freed. They got the idea from a Redpoint (Rotpunkt) brand coffee pot that they had in the house. It has nothing to do with American sport climbing or climbing gyms. 

Frank Stein wrote:

This is completely mistaken. The term “redpoint” originated in the Frankenjura in the late ‘70s. Kurt Albert, Heinz Zak et. al. painted a red dot at the bottom of previously aided routes that they freed. They got the idea from a Redpoint (Rotpunkt) brand coffee pot that they had in the house. It has nothing to do with American sport climbing or climbing gyms. 

I think you should reread my post and try to see what it actually says, in plain and correct English. 

That said,  I find your statement about the origin of the terms completely believable. No where in my post or anywhere else have I claimed the terms to have originated here in the states. To the contrary, if I had been asked where they originated, I would have guessed France.  

Your post does not explain the origin of these terms here in North America. If you know better than me, go ahead. Just as I suggested in my post.

Eric Craig wrote:

I am not sure the pink and red point terms were coined in the pure sport climbing world. They definitely appeared at the beginning of sport climbing and in conjunction with working non-fixed gear routes, which were not, at that time, "traditional ". I am talking mid 1980's. I recall a glossary of those and other terms being published in either Rock and Ice or Climbing magazines. For reference, the first climbing gym in North America opened in 1987, in Seattle. I am not saying this is particularly important, but it seems that actual history would shed light on this topic. Maybe  someone from the mid 80's sport climbing scene could shed some light on this. That's not me. I was happily trad climbing nearly every day 6 months a year then,  and skiing the rest of the year. 

We'll, the term/concept of the 'red point' developed roughly at the same time as 'sport climbing' began to be differentiated from what we now consider to be trad climbing, but, initially at least, the two were not explicitly intertwined.

The 'red point' concept started in Germany---Kurt Albert is considered to be the initial or primary proponent. If a route was being worked on for a free ascent (either a new route or one that previously required some aid) he ( or others in his group) would paint a small red circle circumference on the rock at the base. Once all the moves had been linked in a completely free ascent the circle would be filled in to be completely red---the actual red point!!! By the nature of the rock and the local style of climbing, most of those routes relied primarily or totally on fixed protection. Basically simultaneously, several groups of French climbers were pushing their free climbing standards hard on routes  pretty much totally relying on fixed protection, and they began referring to what they were doing as 'escalade sportive' to distinguish it from the 'speed is the thing, pulling on gear, anything goes' style which had long been standard in much of Europe. They quickly adopted the term 'red point' to describe their fully free ascents. The term and concept very soon 'migrated' to North America through the increasingly international climbing media--as well as through traveling intercontinental climbers. I have no memory of when 'pink point' entered the picture, but do think it originated in this country.

Thank you Alan. 

Like I said,  I am not a sport guy. Done some. BITD. But it wasn't real sport climbing because I don't believe I ever fell, or pulled on gear, on any of the few I did. 

Re Brandon R’s comment:

“And as if this slope couldn't get any slipperier, what if someone raps into a bolted face climb with say 10 bolts in 100 feet, but pre-places long slings with multiple heights of clipping options on each bolt, such that you could clip half way between each bolt... “

I seem to recall a very funny video of some guy hanging a huge chain down a route so as to have multiple clip in points on the way up. Anyone remember that one? Or maybe my memory is faulty?

Daniel Joder wrote:

Re Brandon R’s comment:

“And as if this slope couldn't get any slipperier, what if someone raps into a bolted face climb with say 10 bolts in 100 feet, but pre-places long slings with multiple heights of clipping options on each bolt, such that you could clip half way between each bolt... “

I seem to recall a very funny video of some guy hanging a huge chain down a route so as to have multiple clip in points on the way up. Anyone remember that one? Or maybe my memory is faulty?

No, you remember it correctly. It was a giggle worthy satire video. However, I do recall reading about Skinner hanging a static line with multiple clip point.

Back to “pink point,” I first heard it around 1992 in Penitente when a friend giggled in jest that my “proud” send was just a lowly pink point.  Not long after, the term seemed to become much more prevalent, but in a more judgy and less jocular manner. 

As many have said, in sport climbing "redpoint" allows draws in place.  In trad climbing, you need to place all your gear on the lead, otherwise it is a "pinkpoint."  In the old days, people used this distinction in sport climbing, but no longer.  

As far as "the start," this one pisses me off in particular, because 99% of the repeats of my hardest first ascent use a pile of cheater stones, and miss the hard introductory boulder problem that I did with zero stones.  Nothing to do with height (I'm 5'9"), just much easier starting on a big pile of stones.

We could talk about shoes as aid, but that is another subject.  

It is all good as long as you are honest with how you did it.