First Rope(s) for Red Rocks Multis

Disclaimer: Big post.

Looking for my first dedicated trad multi rope(s) and my partner and I are leaning towards doubles of the 8.9mm Edelrid Swift Protect Pro 60m Dry and using them as half ropes.

I know it's a pricey rope, especially buying 2, but the money isn't a big concern for us and I like the peace of mind of having something so versatile.  I'll explain my reasoning below but please poke holes in it and offer up alternatives.

Firstly, we are both very safety-oriented climbers and we are leaning towards doubles for the redundancy.  Our rope is one of the only things in our climbing safety systems that isn't redundant and I've seen video of a rope being cut on a sport climb when someone fell around an arete.  And rock fall cutting a rope, while rare, does happen and could happen sometime over a lifetime of climbing.   I like to add additional safety wherever I can to factors that are out of my control as long as it doesn't compromise convenience all that much. 

This article by Andy Kirkpatrick really helped sell me on the idea of climbing with doubles despite the fact that its not very common in North America anymore:

https://andykirkpatrick.substack.com/p/the-problem-with-skinny-singles

I like that if a rope gets stuck and we are careful to unstuck it but it is stuck stuck, then we have a 2nd rope that is rated as a single too for re-leading the pitch.  I'd way rather that than use this than a smaller half rope that isn't rated as a single.  It would feel more like an inconvenience rather than a dangerous situation.  It seems like the kind of problem that's bound to happen at some point and I'd rather not be caught in that position with just a tag line.

I like that it has aramid fibres in the sheath that add a lot of durability.  In tests with the ropes weighted with 80kg, the 8.9 with Protect sheath was more than twice as resistant to cutting than a regular 10mm rope.  I think more ropes will start to adopt this.  Even in my sport climbing, watching a rope accidentally floss over an edge for a few feet is one of the few things that creeps me out still.  A bit of extra peace of mind in this dept would be nice.  

I also like 8.9mm specifically and not smaller because Gri Gri's still work well down to an 8.9mm and are rated for down to 8.5mm at the extreme end.  So if I dropped my atc at any point, I can still use my Gri Gri.  

And if I was climbing with a partner who isn't familiar with doubles and just wants to belay with a gri gri on a single, then we have that option and throw the 2nd rope in the followers pack.

Or maybe we come to realize that we really don't enjoy the doubles and we just always use one of the 8.9s as a single and keep the 2nd one in a pack as a backup and for two rope raps.

My one buddy suggested maybe I just get dedicated half ropes (the 8.2mm Edelrid Starling Protect 60m half ropes come to mind as an alternative option).  Lighter, still have the Protect sheaths, slightly less expensive, I'd still be confident to re-lead a pitch to free a stuck rope if I was in a pinch.  It just lacks the versatility of using it as a single strand if I ever drop a device or have a partner who really prefers to climb on a single.  I'm not as keen with going too small in diameter because thinner ropes have way more rope stretch so more likely to fall further and hit a ledge or something.

Obviously there are other pros and cons to this setup but I like it and just want to know if more experienced climbers think the above logic holds up or if Im stupid.  The cons that come to mind seemed to be manageable.  As you can probably tell, I quite like this 8.9 triple rated half ropes idea but just wondering if there is anything else that I am seriously overlooking or if this is simply a bad idea for some reason that will lead to frustration and headaches.

What are your thoughts, experiences, and recommendations?

There's really a lot to unpack here, and I'll admit to approaching this with a bit of bias toward feeling like you're more phobic than cautious. Let's address a few things directly before getting to advice: 

1. If you drop a device, there are a LOT of different methods to cope which do not include carrying multiple devices "just in case" and needing the rope system to be able to accommodate the scenario. Learn your skills, and stop carrying extra and redundant gear for "what if." Skill is what gets you out of bad situations, not a gri gri. 

2. Yes, ropes have been cut. I'm not denying it, but I am going to point out that the majority of climbers have never had a rope get cut and that goes back decades prior to aramid being put into ropes. Cut resistance is a nice feature, but it's exactly that. These "cut resistant" ropes can still get cut. Having the skill to spot when a rope is in a compromising situation is more important than a few aramid threads. It honestly shouldn't give you much more piece of mind than a non-aramid supplemented rope. You still need to be paying attention, and if you are, you likely don't need to worry about it as much. Cut-resistance is the newest feature to sell more ropes for manufacturers, and it's a good feature, but it's not solving a super common problem. 

Additionally, the durability reports on the ropes you are specifically considering are pretty mixed. They may be more cut resistant, but if their overall durability is lower, it may just mean that you get a core shot much earlier in the life of the rope, or you're replacing them MUCH more often to avoid it. 

3. Doubles do add safety, but it's not necessarily confined to redundancy. They also are without question less convenient than singles. The line for what "compromises convenience" is for you to decide about your own climbing. If you go this route, you should really spend the time to learn what the actual advantages to doubles are and why redundancy is actually a good ways down the list. 

Here's the advice...

I climbed in Red Rock as my home crags for a good chunk of my life. I used doubles on the long routes there with a good deal of regularity. I think I went several seasons where they were my primary system when climbing anything over 3 pitches. Doubles are very useful there as protection can sometimes wander, and using doubles allows you to keep the pitches long without adding rope drag. It's also common to need 2 ropes in order to descend, or at least can be very beneficial for getting down quickly as the sun is setting and you are trying to get out of the loop road on time. It's also super common to have ropes get hung up on rappel, and having dynamic ropes that you can lead back up on is helpful (though due to a decent skillset, I can admit that I've only ever done this a couple times in thousands of days of climbing.) You don't need your doubles to be rated as singles for this instance to be safe though! This is another area where you don't seem to have a great understanding of the system and should spend some time getting more acquainted with them. 

All in all, I would say that doubles are very useful for long routes, and you should definitely consider them as an option. The reasons you are considering them though are generally not the primary reasons why, so I suggest giving it some more time and research before you commit. 

Thanks for that thorough response Nate!

I agree that I am overly cautious (bordering on phobic) or just generally obsessive and I am probably also mirroring some of that energy from my climbing partner.

For more context, we are both new to trad and multis and decided we would rather lean towards a very conservative approach grade-wise and leaning on the safe side from a gear and systems perspective even if the trade-off is that we are a bit slower at belays, a bit more weight to carry etc.  We're studying videos, reading books, and planning/prepping, doing some courses, and practicing on single pitch ahead of our RR trip in Nov.  And once there,were going to hire a guide take us up a good beginner multi in RR before we decide if were competent and confident to try some similar easy ones on our own while a) being safe and b) not being a nuisance to other parties on high traffic climbs.  We'd rather be overprepared since we're both beginners.  My ideal scenario would be to climb with a mentor who has a decade-plus of experience but I feel that we will be fine with the approach that were taking.

To your point about the gri gri, I realize that maybe i should just leave it at home and a) just don't drop my atc and b) practice belaying/rappeling with a munter hitch for such a situation.  I am reading a lot of people who like to have an atc on them while leading but have an gri gri while following and an atc for rappel.  But again, maybe this is just extra weight and a waste.  Also, Gri gri generates more force on the top piece from what I understand which is not ideal for trad.

On the topic of not dropping things, I also would prefer to have a tether on my nut tool and phone for another example of overly cautious thinking.  You might go your whole climbing career without ever dropping anything but dropping a belay device or a phone that has the topo would suck (or you know....its your phone, it would suck to drop in general).  So the tiny weight and almost no inconvenience of a couple coil-style tethers (like people love about that wild country nut tool) just feels like a no-brainer to me https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0BCDQJYVH?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title..  Even if I knew and practiced the techniques to belay without a belay device, I still feel like it would be a bit stressful.  I realize most people probably don't bother or don't find it necessary but if we can protect ourselves from 3-5 of these "what if" scenarios like dropping an atc, dropping a phone, dropping the only nut tool, with hardly any inconvenience, I don't think I mind the tradeoff of carrying a couple tethers or a gri gri or an extra atc.  Or the weight of a couple rocky talkies so as to reduce the chance of deadly miscommunications (but also being able to rely on classic communication, and tugs/non-verbal communication if needed.  If I got into doing harder, longer climbs with bigger approaches and descents and wanted a lighter rack, I would be fine to adapt and leave the gri gri behind, invest in an ultra light helmet, consider using a pull cord or one of those 6mm edelrid rap lines that are rated for a couple falls, to conserve weight and prioritize speed, efficiency, convenience more.

Back to the post, I have read and am aware that it would be fine to use a half rope as a single to re-lead and free a stuck rope.  I just thought the peace of mind of a triple rated rope was a nice touch but I know that a half rope as a single would be fine to catch a couple of hard falls.  Manufacturers just cant say so from a lab tested and liability standpoint but climbers seem to agree that leading a single 8.2mm in a pinch would be fine.  And my friend pointed out that you could also cheat and use aid tactics on that pitch if necessary.  Probably still want to stay in a bit of a no fall mindset in this scenario anyways.

And I also have considered that we still need to build good habits and not rely on this extra durable aramid "Protect" sheath in any way but again, its just nice that its there.  Definitely still aware that there is a tiny chance that our rope is cut one day by rock fall or a sharp edge.   And I am sure this wont be the only type of rope I climb on over a lifetime of climbing, just thinking it might be a nice option for right now as we get some experience and baseline comfort level with multpitch climbing.

Based on what you're saying and some things Ive heard from other sources online too, maybe the 8.2mm half ropes are the play for these multi pitch climbs and it still has the aramid sheaths to make me feel a bit more warm and fuzzy inside.  And if I gotta re-lead a pitch one day, I'll still be comfortable on that even its not triple rated.  Or maybe just buy one 8.2mm half rope to throw in the followers pack and lead on my single 9.5mm and enjoy the convenience of climbing more simply and faster belays.

Definitely going to spend more time researching and not rush a decision on rope purchase.  Probably will wait until after our trad/multi courses and speak to our guide before making a decision.  Still leaning towards doubles but maybe il ditch the 8.9mm idea and forget about the versatility of being able to use it with a  gri gri.

I am overthinking this, aren't I?  :D

I feel like Im learning stuff through the process tho.  Definitely in a "studying" phase

I'm lazy and weak, doubles for me just aren't worth the added weight and I always hated faffing around trying to organize doubles on hanging belays.   Neither of these are good reasons not to use them.   The risk of cutting a single rope is rare and infrequent but could happen, you could also cut through doubles.  If I were recommending a rope to a friend just getting into moderate multi pitch I would recommend a single 10mm Unicore 70m.  

Where are you located?  It really feels like you are over thinking everything and possibly overcomplicating the process.  If you were close I would be happy to meet up and climb for a day but it sounds like you are going to be taking a course with is great.  

In terms of risk, I’d choose a Grigri belay with a single rope over an ATC belay on doubles any day of the week. 

A B wrote:

In terms of risk, I’d choose a Grigri belay with a single rope over an ATC belay on doubles any day of the week. 

It's interesting how there are so many conflicting viewpoints.  I totally get this as well and I do like the simplicity of a single rope.  I wasn't that into the idea when my partner initially mentioned doubles (because his roommate from France always climbs with doubles and its pretty standard among his circle of climbers).  But then I went down a deep double ropes rabbit hole and convenience myself into it.  Still learning towards the doubles but maybe I will take some of Nates input.  I think the reality is that there are a thousand micro-decisions and tradeoffs for marginal safety here and a bit of efficiency there and most of them combinations are gonna be good enough as long as the logic works for us and we continue to do our research a better grasp on the fundamentals of multi pitch.  And even if we do beginner noob stuff like being overly careful,  we will learn over time what we do and don't like and keep adjusting our personal gear and systems while being introduced to new concepts by different folks that we climb with over these coming years. :)

You are totally overthinking this.

Price not a concern? Then don't try to solve everything all at once.

I learned to climb in the US, including a little time in red rocks, where we climbed on a single and the leader trailed a second rope if we needed it for the descent.

I now climb in the UK where halfs are definitely more common. 

For your usage, get a regular 9.5 ish single.  Get a tag line, or second rope for the descent when you need it.  Go climb.  In a few months you'll know what you want long term.

Red Rocks specifically is great with a single 70. You can climb and rap almost everything there with just a single 70. Get the Edelrid 9.5 with the aramid sheath (supa dupa safe). 

TBH I would avoid longer raps in RR anyways. It's so easy to snag ropes there, so it's pretty much always a better idea to take more shorter raps. I think the only time i took two ropes up a climb was on Sour Mash, which has one really long rappel iirc.

Just a couple quick points. I don't think doubles are great for less experienced trad climbers. 1.) As noted, they tangle easily, and can get away from you in cracks easily. The outcome is halting and inconsistent slack/tension in belays because your belayer must always focus on how the rope is paying out, and periodically unscramble it midpitch. 2.) Double ropes require close communication between leader and belayer about which rope is to be slacked for clipping, and which rope should be locked/braked to catch a potential fall. 3.) Often the rope drag savings over a single line is offset by the extra weight of two ropes near the top of pitches. 4.) My experience was that the harness knots in the thinner ropes were more prone to becoming loose over a day's climbing. Backup finishing knots are a must.

If you are truly a beginner to multi pitch climbing, keep it simple. Use the same 70m as you would when single pitch climbing, only take a second if double rope rappels are needed for the descent. Looking back at my first couple multi pitches, I can almost garuntee that if you try to use half ropes for your first time it will result in a horrible tangled mess, and possibly compromise safety as the belayer tries to sort it out.

For the best solution and efficiency on every route… You need all the ropes and all the beta - then you make a decision in the morning on what setup to bring.

I default to a single 70 or single 80 if those will work. I climb on 9.0 - 9.2mm ropes. Light, slippery ropes save energy on long physical pitches. Dont worry about getting your rope chopped due to an extra .2mm YGD anyways. This will help to link easy pithes as well. Most raps will go.

A super light 60m tagline if necessary. 6-7mm  rapping on a grigri with a biner block in this situation.

Your rope quiver will grow over the years and you will have all the secret weapons for each objective. 

Look at your list of target climbs and figure out if you actually need 2 ropes to descend. And if you do, how many raps need the full double ropes? I've climbed in RR a fair bit and almost always only use a 70m single rope and a gri gri, occasionally I'll bring a tagline if the route calls for it. Plus, often shorter raps are less likely to get your rope stuck.

As others have said, if you're new to multipitch climbing then dealing with an extra 60m of rope at each belay will suck and will slow you down considerably. Also don't underestimate how much it sucks to have a whole 7lb rope on the follower's back "just in case" - you're already going to be carrying way too much stuff as a beginner.

I climbed in Red Rocks with two 8.8s for several years. Mainly because I'm a bigger guy and with a pack on fairly heavy and I was concerned with cutting the rope. I also clipped both ropes to every piece because of this. Over the years and a bunch of falls never once was my rope damaged from a sharp edge during a fall. The rock there is very friendly and the occasional sharp edge is usually easily mitigated with gear or good rope management.

Sometimes it was nice to have double ropes for rappelling but mostly I found that was only needed when doing long FAs. With all of the info out there it's easy to know in advance if two ropes are required for a climb.

A nice single 70m dry rope like this will serve you well and be a lot less hassle at belays.

There is a lot to unpack.

There is no quiver of 1-2 ropes that will fit every situation in the way you want it to... so maybe you just need to buy 3-4 ropes or be more willing to compromise. 2x of the 8.2, 1x of the 8.9, and 1x of the Edelrid Rap Line II. You choose what to bring that day based on the route, what the partner is willing to belay on, if you NEED to double rope rap, etc...

If you are going to lead with 2 relatively fat triple rated ropes like the 8.9, I'd suggest always climbing in a party of 3 to split up and be able to more justify the extra weight. The 8.9 is a bit stiff. I have not tried it, but it may not be a pleasant experience trying to feed out both strands of it on a ATC-Guide or whatever 2 rope device you want to use to belay. If you always climb in a party of 3, you could have both people belay with GriGris, but that seems silly and inefficient to me.

If you are set on half/double rope technique, 2x of 8.2 is probably a much better way to go. Its very supple compared to the 8.9.

If you are climbing with a partner who is belaying with a GriGri, just throwing the 2nd rope in the followers pack... that is a lot of weight on their back when they climb, and Red Rock has a healthy amount of chimneys. They may very well hate you for making them carry all this extra rope weight... to the base of the climb... all the way up the climb... just to be able to double rope rap, and probably not that many double rope raps will truly be needed.

Many routes at RR have more recent alternate rap lines or you can often top out and forego rapping all together (which is a safety consideration as rapping is one of the most dangerous things we do), you have to read comment discussions.

Re: leading up to free a stuck rope:
* The Edelrid Rap Line II... 6mm tag line. Aramid in the sheath. You can lead on it clipping as twin ropes and it will take 1 fall dynamically.
* Leading on the portion of rope that has made it back to the ground... You may not have enough down to really allow normal leading with your partner belaying you... BUT you can make a ground anchor and lead rope solo up on the stuck rope with an inverted GriGri or the leading on a clove hitch around 2 HMS carabiners technique. Lead rope solo IS a self-rescue technique, and it only requires knowledge of how to use the tools you already have... so no added weight penalty (as a tag line or 2nd rope is).

+1 for having a huge quiver of ropes :) rope cutting is a real thing. anyone denying that likly has not done a bunch of first ascents. I have had many close calls/ core shots. There has never been a recorded case of both ropes in a half rope system cutting resulting in fatality that I am aware of.  I really like doubble ropes on longer free climbs and ice climbs. I really hate doubble ropes on splitter crack climbs or climbs with short pitches. I really like when climbs are bolted for 30 or 35m raps so you can cruise with a single.  Most folks are not fluent with doubbles so its only a great system with a partner that is fluent with the system. If you and your partner are fluent with half rope technique none of the things that people complaine about will be an issue for you. those folks simply suck at useing half ropes.  If its not a splitter crack I hate the thought of lugging a 2nd rope up a climb without being able to actually put it to use while climbing. If i have to bring two ropes I want doubles unless its aid climbing or splitter jamming. doubbles get in the way with splitter jamming. I like a tag aid climbing and doing FA's so I can haul up extra gear / drill etc.  Its absolutly a shit tonn of extra piece of mind for me on a big climb using doubbles. Knowing I have extra rope for emergencies, knowing I can do 60 or 70m raps if the weather goes to shit etc.  Is also super cool running up a bolted multi pitch that is set for 30m raps with a single rope.