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Bioavailable Proteins - Post a day
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There’s a lot of people commenting on this thread and nobody directly addressing any of the math or numbers I raised in any of my posts, or the nutrient density of red meat, or any of the other questions I’ve raised. You can survive on probably a single glass of water a day for the rest of your life, and probably think you feel okay. But you’re not healthy, and if you’ve constructed a diet that excludes the nutrition exclusively found in meats, you’re not healthy either. Protein is not the only nutrient I’ve mentioned, it’s like one of ten I’ve mentioned. Can the Dr above(or anybody) provide a reasonable explanation as to why our muscles and brain are saturated with phosphocreatine and the best source of that is meat products and it doesn’t exist in plants? The appeal to your own authority is simply a way of shutting down conversation because you think you’re too intelligent to learn something from somebody who doesn’t have “PHD” next to their name. I don’t have time right now but I’ll get back on saturated fat, it basically comes down to it being a good energy source. As mentioned previously 12g of saturated fat in palm-sized piece of steak is not a lot. It’s 110 calories of saturated fat with the trade off being a powerhouse of all the other nutrition I mentioned. |
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There are so many ways to view nutrition, and sometimes I think trying to quantify food in a lab is bound to fail. Kale is an example. Raw kale is loaded with nutrition – – high in iron, folate, B vitamins. it’s hard to find a more nutrient dense plant. So you find kale at every salad bar. The thing is kale is notoriously difficult to digest. Our stomachs can extract very little of that nutrition so you can eat piles of it and get nowhere. So the lists of numbers that you see from lab analysis of kale are really pretty meaningless if you can’t extract the nutrition from it (a minor aside, kale it turns out is desperately high in a heavy metal, thallium. Somehow we can get thallium from kale and into our bodies. go figure.) Having been through dozens of food fads over the years all I care about at this point is how I feel and am I strong enough to climb. One metric I have used for the last three years are the data coming off my WHOOP. It’s a straight across transaction for me. This was my recovery score this morning after gnoshing on a huge portion of beef pot roast last night. I could also show you my scores after having a much lighter dinner of salad and portion of chicken breast (usually under 50% Recovery) So it comes down to experimenting to find out what fuels your body. Great lab work also helps point you in the right direction. 
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^kale didn’t even exist as an edible food product until 2,000 years ago, it’s not encoded into our genetic nutrition. It’s like a brand new food product, superfood is a laughable title for that. Again, my only disagreement with Lori, it’s not an experiment for each human to figure out, we are genetically exactly the same. Barring some sort of medical exemption, every single person is designed to run on this fuel. Like we all run on water. Like all our bones are made of calcium. People, don’t like hearing that, but it’s simply the way your body was crafted over millions of years. |
Ryan K wrote: No disrespect but 99.9% of physicians don't know anything about sending hard climbs. I want to learn from people with ACTUAL climbing results. Everything on MP is taken with a grain of salt - we don't need a boomer doctor to tell us that. I'd rather hear from people on MP who have trained up to climb 5.12 and 5.13 what they are doing for diet. What works for natural pros probably won't work for me. |
F r i t z wrote: That Math is correct. I think Permabeta was challenging the math in your previous post, F r i t z wrote: At first it seemed like you were just trying to maintain at the normal amount of protein but with a flawed unit of measure (lb vs kg). Now it appears you're using the correct formula and units of measure to build mass. |
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Not only is Grug's comment indeed disrespectful, it is also simply wrong. Ryan's profile indicates that he does climb up to 5.12, and at 38, he certainly is not a boomer. |
Brandt Allen wrote: Instead of telling us about his diet and how he includes protein he had to flex about being a doctor. He also works into the conversation his specialized nutrition training but offers no insight. So, thanks for nothing. I would love to hear what he eats and why. |
Eric Marx wrote: I’m not sure we know all there is to know about this yet Eric. I am trying to account for extremely healthy vegetarians, and people who cannot tolerate meat but thrive on other foods. One of my closest friends from south India has never had a bite of meat. The various spices that she uses are pretty magical and she herself has thrived well past the age of 70. Of course she’s not rockclimbing – – so there’s that. |
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I've upvoted every comment that has actually posted their day and my only disappointment is that not everyone commenting here has. Post them up! |
Eric Marx wrote: In the meantime, your math and numbers fail to explain why Alex Megos can climb 5.15-, Novak Djokovic can win an Olympic title at 37 years old against a 21-year old, and a 65-year old I know personally can climb 5.13+ — all of whom are plant-based. Sure sucks being “unhealthy”! |
Frazer wrote: How do you know this? |
Yury wrote: While not bodybuilding or sumo'ing, I am a bigger human 200+, so if many days I am scratching in 90ish g protein, probably not ideal especially on active days. More importantly, food:
120g of protein with this example day. I have seen some interesting examples of other foods I might someday try to incorporate... but could use more ideas. Share nutrition, go! |
Jonathan Walker wrote: I’d gladly address this if you provide any meaningful rebuttal to a single thing I said at all. @Lori, this stuff is decided. Your brain is saturated with Omega 3, choline, cholesterol, iron. Your muscles and organs are saturated with creatine. B12, heme iron are essential nutrients. Your body is saturated with water. Water comes from, well, water, and the other stuff only comes from animal products. Your friend has survived without these essential nutrients, sure, like people survive chronically dehydrated running on coffee, it doesn’t mean she’s healthy or functioning optimally. It just means she’s survived. Which herbs that she takes are used in the human brain for brain function and how? I’ll wrap up my posts with a troll: Me - “Hey guys, we should drink about two liters of water a day, and don’t eat refined sugars it’s bad for you, this will reduce injury and improve recovery here’s why…” The crowd: “Idk I have a friend who only drinks a glass a day he’s fine.” “I eat sugar and I’m okay.” “Idk you sound way too confident and dogmatic.” “Drinking clean water is bad for the environment.” Me - “….um the human body is comprised of 70% water guys we do really need this stuff…refined sugar leeches usable nutrition from your body it’s like poison…” The crowd “I only listen to Doctors.” “Sounds like bodybuilder bro science.” “I’m a doctor and this is bad advice.” “You see the most vociferous voices simply won’t cede.” “Everybody needs to find the amount of water and sugar that works FOR THEM.” |
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I strive for 0.8 to 1g of protein per lb body mass per day, and have done several stints of tracking macros on myfitnesspal to be sure I know how much of what I actually do ingest. My main protein sources are animal based, with a significant portion included in almost every meal, 3 meals a day. Eggs, cheese, yogurt, meat, fish, Also eat plenty of plant foods, the higher protein plant foods include well prepared legumes, nuts and seeds, but I do not regard these as dense protein sources, rather more carb and fat sources. |
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Eric, You have some solid advice that you have given here. And much of it I do agree with. Creatine for vegans/veg is one example.
We are not. So to have this stance is a disservice to the complexity of how genes and human bodies work. If it were the case, we would all be copies of each other. |
F r i t z wrote: You picked the absolute highest end of the range provided, and rounded up to 120 grams a day. That might be reasonable, given your level of activity. I wouldn‘t necessarily call it the standard though. I’m not trying to be pedantic here, as professional nutrition societies are all over the place with their protein recommendations. None are advocating 1+ grams/pound (or 2.2 g/kg) of body weight though, which seems to be a common goal in the manosphere. Your article goes so far as to call more than 2 g/kg “excessive.” I think the 1 gram/pound goal arose from people disliking the metric system, not actual science. |
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I'll post some science: The Effects of High-Protein Diets on Kidney Health and Longevity In short we should be eating more protein than we use to, but not as much as a lot of folks think. |
Eric Marx wrote: Your body can synthesize creatine. While important, it‘s not an essential nutrient. You can survive without any in your diet. As far as health goes, depends on the metric you choose. It’s probably easier to build muscle and enhance athletic performance with a diet rich in animal products, including supplemental creatine. But is it ideal for long term health (ie. absence of disease)? You can’t survive on water alone; you can not only survive, but thrive on a plant-based diet. Look no further than the longest lived populations in the word, AKA Blue Zones. All consume carbohydrate rich, plant-based diets, with little to no animal protein, and not much saturated fat. On the flip side, there are no longevity hotspots where red meat is a dietary centerpiece. I know this is a climbing forum, so the priority is climbing. While I doubt any Okinawans elders are crushing the pink gym route, they are unquestionably healthy. As for the OP, I’m a 52 year-old pescatarian, who probably eats less than a gram/kg protein per day (don’t track it). I do so because higher protein intake has been associated with increased mortality in middle age, principally from cancer. Yet I’m climbing my hardest, recently on-sighted my highest grade (.11c, highest redpoint .12d outside), and rarely get injured. So if mediocre mid-life performance is your goal, let me be your anecdote. |
Jaren W wrote: Good post, but I’m not sure animal products are the most nutrient dense in many things besides protein, saturated fat, B12, and a couple metals. And calories. Most of the other micronutrients, plus fiber are from plants. The CDC did a ranking of most nutrient dense foods (fruits and vegetables) thought to reduce the risk of chronic disease, and watercress was number one. |
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@ Mr. Rogers that's a solid post. Thanks! The complexity of genes and the environment absolutely make nutrition more than a "one size fits all" prescription. I read an interesting study more than two decades ago that fascinated me at the time; we didn't have the tools to understand the study then, but I think it makes somewhat more sense now. Basically, the authors found that how much you enjoy a meal affects how much nutrients you absorb. Huh? Here's a brief descrtiption: In the first phase of the study, two groups of women, one from Thailand and the other from Sweden, were fed a typical Thai meal. Needless to say the Thai women preferred the taste of the meal more than the Swedish women did. Interestingly, even though all of the meals contained the exact same amount of iron, the Thai women absorbed twice as much iron from the meal than the Swedish women did. In the second phase of the study, the two groups were served a typical Swedish meal with the exact same iron content. In this case, the Swedish women absorbed significantly more iron from the meal than the Thai women did. In the second phase of the study, the Thai group and Swedish group were split up into two subgroups. The two Thai subgroups were given an identical Thai meal, but one of the subgroup’s meals was pureed into a mush. Even though both of the meals had the exact same iron content, the women who ate the mushy meal absorbed 70% less iron than the other group. The study was repeated in the Swedish group and the results were similar. We could theorize many reasons for this, including of course the interaction of mind and gut, but another possibility is the microbiome: we all have diverse microbiomes, and if we are rasied eating particular foods, we can perhaps expect that our microbiomes are pecifically adapted to process nutriets from those foods, therefore influencing what we eventually absorb as well. Anyway, it's just another part in the complicated puzzle of nutrition. --- As per the OP's request, I'll post my daily intake below. As I said before, I eat mostly grains, vegtables, fruits, nuts, seeds, and olive oil, with some yoghurt and a very small amount of cheese. This diet, while a torture for some, is a true pleasure for me. I wholeheartedtly enjoy each meal, and do not really want to eat anything else. 51 yr old male, lifelong athlete, on average one hour of exercise per day for the last thirty-five years as recorded in training diaries, 194 cm, 95 kg, mostly alpine climbing, ice climbing, mixed climbing, and dry tooling, easy cragging and rock climbing for training, also skiing, mountain biking, hiking, and so on. For the last six years I've followed a structured strength training program focused on ice climbing, with lots of core work, and some leg work for skiing, and I'm far stronger now than I was ten years ago. I work a stressfull job (high school teacher) and devote a great deal of my "off" time to raising my teenage daughter. I always wish for less stress and more sleep, but I'm pretty good about being in bed by 10 or 11 and up by 6, and often take naps when possible, which I think is a really important part of health. I drink lots of water. Breakfast: bowl of low fat probiotic yoghurt, handfull of walnuts, handful of cashews, handful of cranberries, half bannana, unsweetened oat flakes Lunch: about 6-8 small slices of dark whole wheat bread with a tomato, a pear, or a red or yellow pepper, olive oil and salt Dinner: large salad with dark lettuce, red and yellow peppers, carrots, berries, fruits, big handfulls of nuts and seets, edame beans, olive oil and vinegar dressing, about 6-8 small slices of dark whole wheat bread. -Sometimes I eat an afternoon snack similar to breakfast but smaller -Occasionally I add very small amounts of Parmesan cheese or hummus to lunch or dinner -About once per week or ten days I eat a small portion of chicken or lean roast beef -I east handfulls of walnuts, cashews, and cranberries throughout the day -I don't drink alcohol or soft drinks, and I don't eat any processed snacks, sweets, or desserts -My vice/obsession/addiction is dark chocolate. I drink three small cups of very dark chocolate made with lowfat milk every day. The possible heavy metal contamination in the cocoa powder concerns me (see recent research) so I only buy organic/expensive cocoa powder, but that does not entirely eliminate the risk. The refined sugar I add to the chocolate also concerns me, but it's not much, and I don't eat any other sweets. The theobromine and dozens of other bioactive compounds and antioxidants in the cocoa powder calm me, help me focus, and help regulate my OCD and ADHD. Sometimes I wish I could break the habit, but it's hard. -Every few days I take a multivitamin, an iron supplement, and a vitamin D supplement If I changed anything, I'd like to find more good sources of non-animal protein, slightly reduce portion sizes, and add more fats. I don't really like avacados, but I do occasionally add coconut flakes to my salads. Ideas? |
