Slings & runners from spliced dyneema rope? (12-strand Amsteel-ish)

coldfinger wrote:

Thanks Andy!  Good reply but any idea why the outdoor industry has not adopted splicing textiles?  It has with steel ropes.

Ryan you seem far more guilty of what you accuse me of.   I'm well aware of who Andy is.   You not so much.  Don't care to either if that is how easily you are triggered.

You've just become aware of a discussion that has been ongoing, for decades. None of your fears are news to anyone splicing their own slings -- it's all stuff that has been part of the conversation for a long time.

To quote from Scripture: "So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know..."

I think you may be a solipsist... You don't seem aware of the possibility that other people have a separate, complete internal experiential existence that exceeds your own.

coldfinger wrote:

However, splicing rope has been around for thousands of years.  That expert gear and rope manufacturers have to my knowledge NOT adopted that technique (over say sewing/bar tacking) raises some questions.  Could be a cost thing.  Could be that it's a risky technique.  Could be that it's hard to inspect without load testing.  Could be that it can present long term liability risk, for whatever reason.  But unlike Andy's innovation examples (these are all NEW designs) splicing is not a recent invention.  And it's knot in widespread use commercially.  I'd like to see some discussion of why that might be.  Figure folks like Andy are well connected to find those answers.

Black Diamond Ultralights C4 have spliced dyneema
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20150290499A1

Think its one of the HowNot2 video they do a tour and discuss how it came about (may be another Youtuber)

Austrialapin rabbit runner was mentioned earlier in the thread
https://weighmyrack.com/sling/austrialpin-6-mm-alpine-sling-240-cm

I picked 3mm dyneema for the following reasons
- lighter than/cleaner than the 15mm bluewater tube webbing i use on my own gear
-Could get it cheap from a reliable source
- feed through the almost all the nut/hex/cam holes I was planning to use it on
-it's single strand is a above 1000kg breaking strength, doubled is hypothetical 2000kg even if i didn't achieve 80-90%. (and i am still sticking to two loops. the option to use it as an extendable piece is threre)
- am not bringing a product tot market, don't need UIAA certification, All my trad pieces are rated in the 7kn-14kn range

If i had a reliable source for 4 or 5mm I'd definitely like to experiment with ultralight sling loops

I'd say knots are widespread because of the simplicity/time taken and lack of tools.  They still roll, lots of people tie them wrong and some are known to fail in the right circumstances .

Sorry to hear you lost friends.

Ryan Lynch wrote:

You've just become aware of a discussion that has been ongoing, for decades. None of your fears are news to anyone splicing their own slings -- it's all stuff that has been part of the conversation for a long time.

To quote from Scripture: "So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know..."

Aren’t you and Coldfinger just saying the same thing but for different reasons and perspectives?  

Coldfinger is aware that a lot of people that read MP are like the “child wandering in to the middle of the movie…”  and they don’t realize it is the middle of the movie.  I’ve shared many advanced techniques on MP that are certainly dangerous for the majority of people on here but that me and my peers have worked on for a very long time.  I try and error on the side of explaining that a certain amount of knowledge and experience is needed to use the technique safely.  

I’ve done some very basic splicing but this thread is a good reminder that I definitely don’t have the skill to be doing it for PPE equipment.  Fun for the less skilled to try and follow along though.

Please carry-on.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Aren’t you and Coldfinger just saying the same thing but for different reasons and perspectives?

Go back and read his first comment, where he claims that none of us are aware of the dangers of amateur splicing.

He literally just discovered this topic, and assumed that none of the people already involved have been discussing or thinking about the risks.

I'm not saying he's simple... but he sure didn't think about it very hard before he opened his mouth.

Coldfinger is aware that a lot of people that read MP are like the “child wandering in to the middle of the movie…”  and they don’t realize it is the middle of the movie.

Not every discussion on a climbing forum needs to start with a long, chest-beating soliloquy about how deadly this stuff is, if you fuck it up.

People who insist on turning every discussion in that direction aren't helping anyone... Mostly they're just derailing otherwise productive discussions -- like this!

Thanks Ryan!  It kinda sucks when folks die from some simple thing. 

I just find it interesting that BD uses spliced Dyneema in the UL Camalot stem (yes I was aware of that) while DMM hasn't, especially with the extendable sling of the Dragon cam.  Seems like a splice might be perfect for either their Torque Nut or the Dragon sling  but they didn't do it.  I'd like to know why, maybe Andy can help with that question?  Is it just the cost?  Or were there other factors?

With millions of climbers out there my view is that keeping this as simple and safe as possible is the way to go.  Visual inspection is a practice that needs to happen on a daily basis.  With sewn slings it's really easy and quickly done.  Splicing it's not.  

Long story short for me is that one friend died as he didn't catch frayed webbing as it was covered in duct tape and not inspectable.  The other had a hand tied lanyard that came undone.  He didn't see it so he died.  

There is also the choice of 3mm.  Sounds like that might be a bit problematic.  Especially with a splice?

The other concern I have is that tension between innovation (Andy) and bad DIY.  

The fact that I know two close friends who died due to DIY rigging might suggest a great deal of caution is prudent.  When there are millions of climbers I would think it best to rely on manufacturing processes, equipment design and systems that have as near to a zero failure rate as possible.   So I am more than a bit skeptical that splicing (outside of very specialized and high end users) offers benefits that outweigh what appear to be considerable risks.  But I can be convinced.  I have UL Camalots if that tells you all anything.

Peace!

Ryan Lynch wrote:

I'm not saying he's simple... but he sure didn't think about it very hard before he opened his mouth.

Maybe tone down the rhetoric a little bit?  After all, 6 months ago you weren't aware that a loop was stronger than a single strand, and people just calmly explained it to you instead of calling you "simple," "R-worded," "fucking moron[s]," and accusing you of "not thinking about it very hard before you opened your mouth."

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/125071636/tying-slings-on-big-bros-and-cams-too-i-guess#ForumMessage-125094032

Maybe just step away from the forum for a day or two and come back with a fresh start...  Coldfinger has posted a few reasonable and rational questions, and not hurled any insults at people.

coldfinger wrote:

Thanks Ryan!  It kinda sucks when folks die from some simple thing

I sympathize for the deaths of your friends. There's so much that can go wrong in these pursuits, and we've lost too many people to preventable mistakes.

In re: splicing... It's not Black Magic, and I'll share a few things I've learned, this year:

• Safety-critical rope splices are routinely applied in professional rope-work fields where safety is taken FAR more seriously than recreational climbing. Objectively, properly-spliced rope connections are equally as safe as properly-sewn or properly-tied.
• Whether tied, sewn, or spliced -- the safety of any rope-work connection depends ENTIRELY on the competence of the people responsible for making, inspecting, and testing those connections. If the responsible people have good knowledge, training, and attentiveness, then then application can be safe. If not, then the application cannot be safe.
• The low popularity of spliced connections in commerically-available recreational climbing equipment is an accident of history, design choices, and manufacturing costs. There is no fundamental safety issue with splices, any more so than why red is a popular color choice by manufacturers of sports cars.
• Literally everyone who has ever tied themselves into a climbing harness with a figure-of-eight knot was relying on "DIY gear". A few of those people died because no responsible, competent person supervised their application of figure-of-eight knots and climbing harnesses... Similarly, people relying on DIY splices have also died because no responsible, competent person supervised their application of splices.
• IMHO, splicing skills are more complex than tying knots, but simpler than placing protection and building anchors. But objectively, it's not rocket science. Plenty of sailors and arborists learn to splice -- and some of those guys are fucking morons. There's no reason why climbers can't also learn to competently apply splices to climbing gear -- other than the fact that we're a bunch of prideful, grunting savages, bumbling in the intellectual darkness of tradition, mostly incapable of embracing rationality.

Not sure if any of that will convince you of anything -- but at least I'm not just trolling you with quotes from "The Big Lebowski". (This is what "making an effort" looks like, for me.)

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Maybe tone down the rhetoric a little bit?  After all, 6 months ago you weren't aware that a loop was stronger than a single strand, and people just calmly explained it to you instead of calling you "simple," "R-worded," "fucking moron[s]," and accusing you of "not thinking about it very hard before you opened your mouth"...

My ire towards @Coldfinger has nothing to do with his ignorance, or his being a newbie... I'm flaming him because of THIS:

@coldfinger wrote:

One thing that never gets much attention with DIY climbing gear:

Almost all the discussion of the merits, pros, cons etc. of DIY gear is from the perspective of the individual making them.

So I'd offer this comment: how about everybody else who ends up relying on this gear?  As in your partners.  If I know nothing of these techniques how am I to inspect these items?  Or use them safely?  Do I have an informed choice?  

(Link: mountainproject.com/forum/t…)

That's pretty insulting -- he is literally accusing us of behaving recklessly, by failing to account for the safety of our partners. That's a fucked up thing to say about another climber.

It's also ignorant -- because if he'd bothered to read the entirety of this thread (or the many other threads about DIY gear on this forum and others) he would have noticed SIGNIFICANT discussion of the exact topics that he's accused us of neglecting.

It doesn't take a very deep dive into the comment history of @Kyle Tarry to see how you handle it when someone makes a comment that you find both ignorant AND insulting... You don't exactly respond like Mother Theresa, man.

Ryan Lynch wrote:

. You don't exactly respond like Mother Theresa, man.

Yeah, but he's not the one begging to others to be understanding and kind when merely asked why you needed a 17 picket junk show, or getting all huffy every time a thread doesn't get answered in the way you were hoping.

coldfinger wrote:

There is also the choice of 3mm.  Sounds like that might be a bit problematic.  Especially with a splice?

I use a Ronstan D-splicer needle sized for 2mm-4mm

couldn't remember the exact dyneemas specs but they are 

Marlow D12 SK99 Dyneema, Minimum breakload: 3mm — 1,070kg  Orange (can get a 3.5 red with 1500kg)

Samson Amsteel-Blue 3.3mm sk78  Average breaking strength: 1,100kgs (yellow)
Where I buy it is marketed as ultralight pullcord.

Splicing it is actually straight forward, think it takes a lot longer to trust it and the 'chinese finger trap' physics in general. The lack of familiarity creates unease over knots. Inspecting it is done by tactile feel. Do I recommend everyone go out and do it? Absolutely not. If someone' s doing it then I am curious about their process. Yes. Maybe I will learn something, maybe I will teach something, or maybe i will just pray they survive it.

Idon't think the diameter is an issue, only how much redundancy you want in the breaking strength and how the cord behaves around sharp bends. I could see spliced dyneema being used mostly in applications where they are encased in something to protect it from UV. (even nylon tubing).

In my application, I would resplice with fresh material if I took a large whip/shock on a piece, Not something that a manufacturer would want to do.
Their use of sewing is probably more pragmatic decision based on how their manufacturing workshops are already set up and their skilled staff are made up of sew machine operators. If i replaced the webbing on my DMM Torque Nuts I might splice them the way i have done the WC rockcentrix/ Bd hexes. Or just keep them single loop with bluewater 15mm tube webbing.

Now we are reaching the 10 year mark for BD c4 ultralights i wonder how many people will retire/scrap them and will we see a string of potentially deadly failures.

It seems that the large amount of accidents and deaths in climbing are ruled as user error , manufacturers definitely have brought a lot of innovation to climbing over the last 50 years, one thing is it comes with the danger of people being complacent.

Ryan Lynch wrote:

In re: splicing... It's not Black Magic, and I'll share a few things I've learned, this year:

Just a question from ignorance.  I've seen Amsteel on How not2, and pics of highlines, and noted the Dyneema in BD ulttalights.  I'm nervous about durablility, strictly by extrapolation from skinny slings.  I've swithched from Mammut 8mm alpine draws to BD 10mm Dynex, and am still not pleased with apparent durablilty.  I've got a test Trango 11mm sling now.  Yet these slings are protected on the edge with a nylon weave.  Do straight simple weaves of Dyneema/Spectra have better durability than the typical slings?  If so , why???

The fact that nobody has gone any where near the 21st century hi-tech splicing/reslinging of hexentrics (!!) aspect of Ryan's experiments shows a complete lack of intention to troll or insult here?  

Think I'll let my contributions here stand on that note!

Latro wrote:

Just a question from ignorance.

That's OK -- we're all immigrants, born in the nation of Ignorance :-)

Also, most of the folks here are about on par with chimpanzees in long pants, intellectually speaking. They're pretty good at throwing poop, but that's about it.

I've seen Amsteel on How not2, and pics of highlines, and noted the Dyneema in BD ulttalights.  I'm nervous about durablility, strictly by extrapolation from skinny slings.  I've swithched from Mammut 8mm alpine draws to BD 10mm Dynex, and am still not pleased with apparent durablilty.  I've got a test Trango 11mm sling now.  Yet these slings are protected on the edge with a nylon weave.  Do straight simple weaves of Dyneema/Spectra have better durability than the typical slings?  If so , why???

Dyneema has *more* abrasion resistance than Nylon *of the same thickness*.

Skinny Dyneema slings may wear out quicker than fat Nylon slings -- but that's because it's an "apples to oranges" comparison. The thicker Nylon is making up for it's lack of abrasion resistance by being thicker.

Dyneema webbing isn't protected by those Nylon edges -- the Nylon actually makes the webbing product weaker and less abrasion resistant than an equivalent total thickness of pure Dyneema would be. The Nylon edges' purpose is to provide a cheap way to color the webbing product, because Dyneema can't take dye color after spinning, and the spun thread is only available in a limited selection of colors.

If you want maximums durability and aren't too concerned with weight, you could probably replace most of your Dyneema / Dynex runners with loops of spliced SK78 or SK99 (Dyneema) rope.... But heed well my two dire warnings:

• It'd be expensive, and your color choices will be limited, and you'll have to invest a bunch of time & money into learning to splice, pull-testing your shit, etc, etc... Trust me, it's a gigantic hassle, and totally NOT worth it.
• The chimpanzees around here really won't like it... And when the chimpanzees get riled up about something, they usually throw poop at you.

Ryan Lynch wrote:

... loops of spliced SK78 or SK99 (Dyneema) rope.... But heed well my two dire warnings:

Just make rabbit runners, not loops.

• It'd be expensive,

huh? like .65 cents a foot for 6mm-1/4"

•  and your color choices will be limited, and you'll have to invest a bunch of time & money into learning to splice, pull-testing your shit, etc, etc... Trust me, it's a gigantic hassle, and totally NOT worth it.

You don't gotta pull test nothin. Bury those tails properly and send it. Thats why MFGs give bury lengths (1 fid, 1.5 fid, 3 fid, 60x diameter, etc, etc).
We didn't pull test the splice I made for P!nk's winch line to fly at the AMAs. She's not dead yet..... at least from my splicing.

But really, back yard proof testing of your splice for some piece of mind is easy with a chain hoist or come-along and a cheap load cell, or use a "fuse" of relatively known strength.

YGD.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Just make rabbit runners, not loops.

huh? like .65 cents a foot for 6mm-1/4"

... Not accounting for the cost of the tools he'd have to buy, or the cost of his own free time to learn, practice, and test his own splicing skills.

You might consider your own free time to be worthless -- but I don't think most people see it that way.

You don't gotta pull test nothin. Bury those tails properly and send it. Thats why MFGs give bury lengths (1 fid, 1.5 fid, 3 fid, 60x diameter, etc, etc).

We didn't pull test the splice I made for P!nk's winch line to fly at the AMAs. She's not dead yet..... at least from my splicing.

The fact that nobody has died *yet* doesn't really prove anything about the quality of your splices... Especially with such a small sample size.

And by that I mean: DON'T GIVE UP! If you keep trying, you might still be able to kill somebody... Persistence is the key!

But really, back yard proof testing of your splice for some piece of mind is easy with a chain hoist or come-along and a cheap load cell, or use a "fuse" of relatively known strength.

Hmmm... that's another $50 for a come-along, and maybe $100 for a shady load cell that might handle 20kN, and a couple of big trees ... Which of course EVerybody has lying around at home -- and none of them live in urban apartments, far from trees.

Me, I'm practically tripping over all my come-alongs and load cells!

But yeah, pull testing can super easy and cheap, if you do it poorly enough.

Seth Santos wrote:

Now we are reaching the 10 year mark for BD c4 ultralights i wonder how many people will retire/scrap them and will we see a string of potentially deadly failures.

I was wondering about the BD Ultraglights too. Dyneema's maximum shelf life is mostly quoted as being 5 year maxium, less if it used frerquently. I'm happy to climb on spliced gear. My favorite connector for main LRS device is two soft shackles which always load predictably and can be loaded in any direction. I don't like soft materials enclosed in plastic tubing, like the BDs. How is it meant to dry or breath if the material taken on moistere? Also, how do I check inspect it?

For anyone open to try splicing, I personally found it very intuitive. It is very inexpensive. For splicing eyes or loops, I just use some wire. Because climbing applications involve abrasion with the rock, it's best to use a wider diameter. Also, be generous with the lengths of the bury.

Ryan Lynch wrote:

... Not accounting for the cost of the tools he'd have to buy, or the cost of his own free time to learn, practice, and test his own splicing skills.

Yes, you buy tools that allow you to make things.... or you can make your own for insanely cheap.

You might consider your own free time to be worthless -- but I don't think most people see it that way.

Does the time to hone ones skills or learn new skills not add value? All that "wasted" time is why I have work in the vertical world. Not everything of value is monetary but cool to see what drives your decision making.

The fact that nobody has died *yet* doesn't really prove anything about the quality of your splices... Especially with such a small sample size.

And by that I mean: DON'T GIVE UP! If you keep trying, you might still be able to kill somebody... Persistence is the key!

You're just being a d*ck. I fly performers all over the world for work. My sample size enormous (thats what she said) I just used that example to illustrate not all people on here are just pulling it out of thin air.... you think they'd let me put half billion dollar human at risk cause "trust me bro"?

Hmmm... that's another $50 for a come-along, and maybe $100 for a shady load cell that might handle 20kN, and a couple of big trees ... Which of course EVerybody has lying around at home -- and none of them live in urban apartments, far from trees.

Me, I'm practically tripping over all my come-alongs and load cells!

Again, being a dismissive d*ck. It is not a very cost prohibitive to get those things. How much are climbing shoes going for again?

But yeah, pull testing can super easy and cheap, if you do it poorly enough.

Jeebus Ryan. Im offering people a avenue for folks on a budget. How your are twisting it into what you just presented is beyond me. Your opinions on what is too expensive for someone to dive into for their own exploration is next level projection.

Who's the poo throwing monkey now. Thanks for adding little of value to the discussion. 

Noel Z wrote:

I was wondering about the BD Ultraglights too. Dyneema's maximum shelf life is mostly quoted as being 5 year maxium, less if it used frerquently.

About the Dyneema "shelf life" issue... That 5-year limit (or a 10-year limit, or any specific number is a bit of a dodge, but it does NOT mean that the gear gets progressively weaker due to aging, alone.

However, in the real world, a Dyneema product may get weaker due to experiencing:

• Physical damage -- abrasion, hard falls, cut fibers, exposure to heat above 150°C.
• Thermal cycling -- repeated heating and cooling, as from days/nights of being stored in a car or an insulated shed.
• Chemical damage -- HMPE is ridiculously inert for an organic polymer, but some acids and oxidizers can fuck it up.
• Etc -- UV or ionizing radiation, psychic warfare, who knows.

So the gear manufacturer's 5-year time limit is just a way of saying "Your gear may be accumulating damage and growing weaker, in the course of how you use & store it. You may not get any obvious warning that it's grown weak enough to fail when you rely on it's strength." It's just a generic CYA.

In reality, we'd expect the actual rate of strength loss to vary considerably, depending on the actual history of these various Dyneema products. So the true "retirement age" isn't a specific number, but a probability distribution... I would guess it's just a Gaussian (bell curve) or one of its fancier cousins.

But since the accumulated damage may not be visible, there's only one way to *know* how much a specific piece of Dyneema has weakened: Pull test it, to the point of breaking.

So yes -- on a long enough timeline, we would expect to see some aging Dyneema cam slings fail, distribution as some kind of bell-like curve. But it's not because of their age -- it's just that age tends to be correlated with exposure to events that damage and weaken the textile.

FWIW -- all of this is also true of Nylon, and basically every other polymer textile, natural or artificial. Dyneema is tougher than most, in almost every regard except for maximum temperature exposure.

I'm happy to climb on spliced gear. My favorite connector for main LRS device is two soft shackles which always load predictably and can be loaded in any direction.

That is a fucking rad idea. I would LOVE to see pictures of your LRS setup.

I don't like soft materials enclosed in plastic tubing, like the BDs. How is it meant to dry or breath if the material taken on moistere? Also, how do I check inspect it

Moisture content is pretty much irrelevant to Dyneema -- unlike Nylon, which behaves very differently depending on how much moisture it currently has absorbed.

So I'm fine with plastic tubing, as long as it's clear on any load-bearing areas. Gotta be able to see what's underneath to inspect it.

Just stopping by to say thanks to Ryan.

There was a moment in the beginning of this thread where I felt a little bad. I have such a negative opinion of you from your prior posts and how you interacted with people. I really thought for a minute that maybe I had been wrong and too hard on you. I really started to think that you were capable of a civil discussion.

It took a few more posts than usual, but you managed to devolve into being the rude, name-calling, and seemingly miserable person I thought you to be. Thank you for relieving me of the guilt I felt when I began to think I had labeled you wrong.

Whatever it is that is wrong with you, and makes you incapable of interaction with other people without hostility, I really hope you find relief one day. 

Mr Rogers wrote:

OK, let's get serious -- no more throwing poop.

• I believe that you must be good at your job, and you would never allow your flying performers to get injured. You ensure that no performer ever experiences enough force to give them whiplash injuries, or break their bones as they impact their own harness straps.
• Severe climbing falls can cause severe injuries or death from the whiplash and harness impact, alone. High-factor falls, or falls into static gear, are a mechanism of HORRENDOUS damage to the human body.

Climbing gear is supposed to be rated well beyond the point where the human body breaks. Runners, carabiners, and harnesses need >20kN as recreational PPE, which is beyond even most lethal car accidents!

Your pelvis shatters ~10kN... 20kN rips your limbs off, pops your hollow organs, and detaches the rest... The fluid that surrounds your brain and fills your spine will be dripping out of your ears.

If your professional flying rigs aren't even dislocating an occasional elbow, then we know that the forces involved must be pretty small -- way smaller than a bad lead fall.

So what does your work experience really prove? I'd probably trust your splices with body-weight, or even top-rope or rappelling forces. But until you appreciate the need for a more rigorous testing methodology, we don't really have any idea whether your splices are strong enough or reliable enough for lead climbing.