Slings & runners from spliced dyneema rope? (12-strand Amsteel-ish)

Should also add I have been experimenting with 3mm Dyneema on Trad gear for about a year or so now. I have done a double loop through the thumbsuds of pre -C4 camalots and on various hexes that are BD 5 size or smaller.

FIRSTLY THEY ARE STILL IN EXPERIMENTAL STAGE AND THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSMENT, I HAVE YET TO WHIP ON ANY OF IT.

The way I spliced the Camalots, they are theoretically extendable but I mostly have them so they are a back up twin loop to the 20-25year+ factory slings. Two loops allow me to bury the long 210mm+ (70:1) tails in the splice.

Anyone readying this be mindful that metal thumb studs of Gen3 camalots and similar designs like HB Flex-fix/ Wild Country Flex friends are big round chunks of metal, the wide bend radius should be ok for the skinny Dyneema. Not to sure about sharp angles and tiny bends on wire thumb loops that are common on many climbing cams without some some added metal thimble.

All the hexes have twin loops too. I usually have the splice sitting across the top two holes so that the thickest part of the dyneema is over the bend. Size 1 and 2 are single loop. I am loving them over the stiff metal wire (or thin rope). They have been racked regularly like nuts and used for practice placements. Figured no point testing the splices when they are new but better to break test them after they have been used and reused unceremoniously. The splices have not worked themselves undone on the ten odd hex pieces yet. They probably at a point that i should be attaching like a quickdraw on a sports route and testing with weights to see if they break.

I also plan to splice a lone size MH 3 Bigbro i have acquired but haven't got round to it. Will try to get some photos up in a few days of the gear .

Seth Santos wrote:

.... The splices have not worked themselves undone on the ten odd hex pieces yet.....

Did you not brummel lock your eye splice?

With that length of bury locked brummels aren’t needed, only some locking stitches for zero, or low loads. 

Brocky wrote:

With that length of bury locked brummels aren’t needed, only some locking stitches for zero, or low loads. 

Well understood sir around bury length and "need" for brummel.
He's saying it didnt slip which implies, to me at least, it is not "locked" with stitching or other another method which could mean the eye could slip/be pulled out in in a menagerie of ways.

Seth Santos wrote:

Any clarification on which Mountains Essentials by Sebastien Constant? I am guessing Ice, Snow, Mixed Techniques & Strategies?

I thought of asking Andy the same thing, and ended up ordering the book you mention above, based on the description in this link
https://www.sebastien-constant.com/shop/books/mountain-essentials-ice-snow-and-mixed-techniques-and-strategies/?lang=en

Check the graphics of some of the pages which show soft shackles, etc.

Seb’s Dyneema rescue gear descriptions also refer to that book.
https://www.sebastien-constant.com/shop/equipment/?lang=en

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere on Mtn Proj, but RopeLite LLC in Washington state has some interesting spliced products:

https://www.ropelitellc.com/blank-4

Terry E wrote:

I thought of asking Andy the same thing, and ended up ordering the book you mention above, based on the description in this link
https://www.sebastien-constant.com/shop/books/mountain-essentials-ice-snow-and-mixed-techniques-and-strategies/?lang=en

Check the graphics of some of the pages which show soft shackles, etc.

Seb’s Dyneema rescue gear descriptions also refer to that book.
https://www.sebastien-constant.com/shop/equipment/?lang=en

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere on Mtn Proj, but RopeLite LLC in Washington state has some interesting spliced products:

https://www.ropelitellc.com/blank-4

The splices on the RopeLite products look very questionable, simple stitching of the tail, not locked brummels, and no bury???

Seth Santos wrote:

Any clarification on which Mountains Essentials by Sebastien Constant? I am guessing Ice, Snow, Mixed Techniques & Strategies?

Yes, that's the one.

Brocky wrote:

The splices on the RopeLite products look very questionable, simple stitching of the tail, not locked brummels, and no bury???

I've been pretty skeptical of his stuff, apparently he's tested it all though.

He calls the funky looking buryless splices "snakesplices", and afaik they're done only in 12 stand polyester, not hmpe. According to him they're ~80% efficient and the reason for using them instead of a long bury is that you don't have the bury affecting the diameter of the rest of the sling, which tbf is a problem with a long bury splice. 

His regularly spliced long bury slings look pretty unprofessional, not sure why he's doing the messy looking lock stitches instead of a brummel. Also, sharpie marks everywhere looks gross. 

I'm just a dude on the internet but knowing what I know I wouldn't buy his products without more data shared on the "snakesplice", as I haven't been able to find anything about it or anyone else using the same technique. And also I can just make my own ;) 

It's interesting seeing him pop up here and there - some techfluencers like alpinesavvy have showed his products as well as the sharp end podcast had him on a while ago.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Well understood sir around bury length and "need" for brummel.
He's saying it didnt slip which implies, to me at least, it is not "locked" with stitching or other another method which could mean the eye could slip/be pulled out in in a menagerie of ways.

buried and some whip stiching with braided dynema fishing line to hold it into place. Its not a lot so i didn't consider them ' locked' 

haven't actually placed the cams much since I spliced them. To much fun with cowbells and other passive gear on the cruisey climbs. There's a very low grade mixed multipitch here that people usually just free solo the second unbolted pitch that i take a different style of cowbell every time I run someone through the multipitch. (OG Hexcentrix, WC Rockcentrix, Dmm Torquen nuts, Plastic Poly-hexes etc)  The smaller spliced hexes come along to get wear and tear. (only placed and evaluated at foot of crags and comfortable stances on sports climbs)

Biggest spliced hex is a BD 6 smallest double loop is a 3.

Brocky wrote:

The splices on the RopeLite products look very questionable, simple stitching of the tail, not locked brummels, and no bury???

Yes, very strange "splicing." Zooming in, it doesn't even look like a un-burried brummel on the multi use cord, friction hitch loops, etc...

I have seen that kinda "splice" before on some specialized anchor webbing with integrated sewn "pockets" every few inches, but not in dyneema.
https://www.balancecommunity.com/blogs/slack-science/adjustable-anchor-webbing-testing-the-configurations

The ultimate anchor sling looks like a normal bury splice with stitching.

You can buy Marlow PS12 from fisheriessupply, polyester 12 strand hollow braid. I have played with a little bit.

Seth Santos wrote:

haven't actually placed the cams much since I spliced them. To much fun with cowbells and other passive gear on the cruisey climbs. There's a very low grade mixed multipitch here that people usually just free solo the second unbolted pitch that i take a different style of cowbell every time I run someone through the multipitch. (OG Hexcentrix, WC Rockcentrix, Dmm Torquen nuts, Plastic Poly-hexes etc)  The smaller spliced hexes come along to get wear and tear. (only placed and evaluated at foot of crags and comfortable stances on sports climbs)

Biggest spliced hex is a BD 6 smallest double loop is a 3.

very cool Seth.

I'm a long term diy hammock guy and in that community there's a lot of splicing happening. Most of the methods are borrowed from the sailing world anyway, where they have to deal with greater and dynamic forces than hammock application. I have done some arborial work over the years and lot's of guys splice their own solutions. You learn to trust it. It's just exposure. Knots too take time with win one's trust. 

Two negatives things about dyneema occur to me: 1) hollow braid gets fuzzy fast and picks up thorn and pine needs, 2) you need to keep an eye on your bury, milk it from time to time or add a small bury-holding stitch with visible thread.

One commerical product I recall seeing was a AustriAlpin Alpine Sling 240cm Belay Sling. I can't find it in any stores. It was a rabbit runner of 240cm length. Quite useful I imagine.

If I replace a cam's sling these days, I now do it with a follow through bolin-on-a-bight:

https://youtu.be/M19taMAZHp4?t=708

The bolin-on-a-bight is used to build belays by some people north of the alps and I trust it. 

One thing that never gets much attention with DIY climbing gear:

Almost all the discussion of the merits, pros, cons etc. of DIY gear is from the perspective of the individual making them.

So I'd offer this comment: how about everybody else who ends up relying on this gear?  As in your partners.  If I know nothing of these techniques how am I to inspect these items?  Or use them safely?  Do I have an informed choice?  

Seems to me that a major problem is this: manufactured gear does conform to national or even world wide standards.  3 sigma would be an example of an industry generated manufacturing quality control standard.  There is also the threat of a lawsuit.  Point being that manufactured gear is both reliable in how it is produced and reliable in how it is inspected.  There are best practices for its inspection and use.  The end user really only to worry about inspecting for wear or damage and watching out for misuse by climbers.

I am 100% sure there are a few folks out there capable of splicing etc. without making a single error.

I am also 100% sure that most recreational climbers are hard pressed to properly inspect and use gear.  Nevermind make it.

I am also 100% sure the idiot climbers out there are going to cause accidents with their DIY gear.

So as a group, I'd suggest it might be a good discussion to have regarding the hazards of wide spread acceptance of DIY PPE.

Put another way, lets say you are going to do some longish alpine route with a new partner.  He/she shows up with all sorts of DIY slings and rigging.  How's the moment you realize you will be trusting that with your life going to feel?  Are you going to inspect every splice (even though you have no clue how to splice dyneema)?

Almost all climbing gear innovation comes from amateurs tinkering with ideas outside of what would be judged as conventional or safe, often by 'borrowing' from other sports or activities. Just look at Jardine's Friends or people making climbing nuts out of machine nuts they found on a Welsh railway line, or hand sewing climbing harnesses out of leather. I'm sure many people said they'd not trust such Heath Robinson gear at the time, but soon enough, these edge products became mainstream and refined safety. I feel that the pace of innovation has slowed in the last ten years as fewer and fewer people seem to have the skills or feel they have the permission or qualifications to come up with new ideas that they can then take to manufacturers to manufacture (3 Sigma, etc, kills innovation). This leads to fewer tiny brands making state-of-the-art gear (look how a tiny company like CCH and Aliens redefined what a cam should be) that nudge the big brands to innovate. Yes, splicing is a skill, but so too is placing a #1 brass nut, nailing a Tomahawk, or a snow stake, and anyone who'd do a half-assed job of it (without real study) will probably die anyway due to mistying a bowline. 

coldfinger wrote:

One thing that never gets much attention with DIY climbing gear:

Almost all the discussion of the merits, pros, cons etc. of DIY gear is from the perspective of the individual making them.

So you just joined this discussion, with zero prior knowledge of the hundreds to thousands of hours of accumulated discussion, writing, and thinking on this subject that the rest of have participated in...

And it never occurs to you that your ignorance is not the complete story?

News flash, guy... This is not news to the rest of us -- just you. We spend an awful lot of time thinking about the effects of our gear choices on everyone who relies on our gear.

And before you get insulted by my tone, here -- just imagine for a second how insulted all the rest of us are, by your tone.

Hey you guys can do this.  Free country.  And you all know what you are doing.

Point is to ask what everyone doing this looks like?  Not sure I like that.  Enough folks have died from simple knot errors.

As for what Andy points out about innovation, I'm all for that.  Things have gotten quite a bit easier/safer. No doubt about that.  

However, splicing rope has been around for thousands of years.  That expert gear and rope manufacturers have to my knowledge NOT adopted that technique (over say sewing/bar tacking) raises some questions.  Could be a cost thing.  Could be that it's a risky technique.  Could be that it's hard to inspect without load testing.  Could be that it can present long term liability risk, for whatever reason.  But unlike Andy's innovation examples (these are all NEW designs) splicing is not a recent invention.  And it's knot in widespread use commercially.  I'd like to see some discussion of why that might be.  Figure folks like Andy are well connected to find those answers.

Over the decades I've been at it I've seen quite a bit of sketchy kit and behavior, never mind folks misusing commercially produced kit.  So, I'm not eager to see a return to the good old days of home made kit.  

A big hazard nowadays are folks seeing something they don't really understand on the internet and getting themselves or others hurt or killed when they either screw it up or use an application in the wrong setting.

I trust my life every day I work to spliced steel cable, but then again there aren't that many folks qualified to do that.

And I've lost two close friends to rigging failures.  Both had kids.  So yes its a bit of a sore subject.

That loss has made me a stickler for inspecting any equipment, knot or rigging I'm trusting.  I suspect that splices aren't the easiest things to examine?  

Thanks Andy!  Good reply but any idea why the outdoor industry has not adopted splicing textiles?  It has with steel ropes.

Ryan you seem far more guilty of what you accuse me of.   I'm well aware of who Andy is.   You not so much.  Don't care to either if that is how easily you are triggered.

I should add for those of you enjoying a rainy Sunday on MP that dyneema is famously slippery with knots, hence you almost never see it knotted.  It is almost always sewn.

So splicing it caught my eye as an interesting idea, but sounds a bit tricky with that material over say regular rope.

coldfinger wrote:

Thanks Andy!  Good reply but any idea why the outdoor industry has not adopted splicing textiles?  It has with steel ropes.

Ryan you seem far more guilty of what you accuse me of.   I'm well aware of who Andy is.   You not so much.  Don't care to either if that is how easily you are triggered.

There is a lot to unpack from your comments above and opinions that seem come from a place of ignorance around splicing of 8/12 strand hollow braid, and splicing in general.
Ultra light c4's use spliced dyneema to form the load bearing loop of the cams as shown in the image below. 

As well, I dont know if you consider this the outdoor industry(I do), but kite boarders kite lines are many times spliced. Or maybe the slack line companies who make spliced soft shackles, or off road companies who make the same.

In the end, you don't need to climb with someone who uses gear that seems sketchy to you.