Max weight hangs vs grade climbed

Honestly, I think you should all get a Tindeq (or similar) and quit with the hang board. I see huge hangs associated with mediocre climbing numbers all the time; I have yet to see that with big overcoming isometric scores. The ability to actively pull with the fingers is way more predictive (IMO) of climbing performance.

Dan Schmidt wrote:

Honestly, I think you should all get a Tindeq (or similar) and quit with the hang board. I see huge hangs associated with mediocre climbing numbers all the time; I have yet to see that with big overcoming isometric scores. The ability to actively pull with the fingers is way more predictive (IMO) of climbing performance.

How is a tindeq more active for fingers? I have a tindeq too, before you say “you gotta try it”

John Clark wrote:

How is a tindeq more active for fingers? I have a tindeq too, before you say “you gotta try it”

If you're familiar with the whole overcoming vs. yielding isometrics debate, I'm just weighing in on behalf of the overcoming style. In principle, both methods are doable with a force meter like the Tindeq and also with a traditional fingerboard, but the Tindeq is a more practical way to perform the overcoming style training and testing. The overcoming style is inherently "more active" in the sense that on any given rep, all of the force is coming from the hand and forearm muscles, similar to hitting a hold in drag or chisel and closing it into a crimp. I would think you could get the same effect from diligently executed yielding style training or hangs, but they're much more learnable, which means you can boost your score without getting adaptations that are useful for climbing.

And really, I'm not saying that there's certainly no use for hangs. (Though I personally don't hang at all anymore; I replaced that with climbing drills and don't miss it—my joints are a lot healthier as a result.) I am saying that I have met a hell of a lot of climbers with huge hang scores that were not represented in their climbing. The overcoming style seems to track much better with how people are actually able to express their hand strength on the wall. (I'm sure that's partly because the overcoming style is currently less popular, but I don't think that's the whole story.)

Another addition: 

148lbs with 45lbs, 20mm edge for 7 seconds in chisel grip (only my second session in years) 

Hardest red point 13a (4 total), style: RRG, Rumney, Siurana

Hardest boulder, V6, though not accurate or helpful because I’ve bouldered outside fewer than 10 times in 10 years. 

I have bought into the mindset that i need to up my numbers on finger strength and moonboard grades to break into the next level for me on outdoor sport grades, so naturally I wonder how a moonboard grade translates to outdoor sport grades, and then how finger strength ties into moonboard grades. So many data points. 

Going strictly off an outdoor sport grade is a little deceiving for a lot of reasons; people mega-projecting routes and eventually winning the battle of attrition, finding new/different beta to make the sport route actually easier than the original grade (kneebars, handjams, climbing questionably close to being off route, etc), style specific climbing areas like the Red or Maple where you can cheat finger strength

Are people mentioning when they send their hardest routes in relation to when they hung with the most weight? My hardest sends are never in the same timeframe as my hardest hangs, hopefully for obvious reasons. 

My hardest route by grade was after I did my best max hangs and finished a mini endurance block at the same time.

John Clark wrote:

My hardest route by grade was after I did my best max hangs and finished a mini endurance block at the same time.

What is “same time”; Same day? Week? Month?

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

What is “same time”; Same day? Week? Month?

For me same week.

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

What is “same time”; Same day? Week? Month?

Same week. One arm hang with 30 lbs assist on the BM2 middle edge, finished 4week ARC thing, and sent 13a that week.

John Clark wrote:

Same week. One arm hang with 30 lbs assist on the BM2 middle edge, finished 4week ARC thing, and sent 13a that week.

Nice. Was your training cycle power or strength based? Would you categorize the route as short and bouldery or more power endurance? 

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Nice. Was your training cycle power or strength based? Would you categorize the route as short and bouldery or more power endurance? 

Strength, but may have just been learning to crimp smaller edges. Warp factor is a 2-3 move wonder if you have the endurance to punch through the filler moves. At least it was when I did it pre break.

To add I still haven’t hung more than the +65 at 165, although I suspect I could do a little more. To Dane’s comment, I’ve done maybe 20-30 v8 on moonboard and one v9, same with kilter. Still working on 13d and haven’t really tried to boulder harder outdoors, mainly since I live in Kentucky. Probably time for me to train a little bit? Climbing is just way more fun haha 

A more beginner datapoint I guess

158lbs + 15lbs on the outside bm1000 bottom rungs

A handful of V5s in bishop and a few V6 at my local, softer bouldering area as well as some moonboard 6s

I don’t sport climb much due to proximity but have flashed 11c and redpointed 12a

I feel like improving my finger strength would probably translate pretty directly to grades since I think they (along with my lock off strength) are pretty weak.

jessie briggs wrote:

To add I still haven’t hung more than the +65 at 165, although I suspect I could do a little more. To Dane’s comment, I’ve done maybe 20-30 v8 on moonboard and one v9, same with kilter. Still working on 13d and haven’t really tried to boulder harder outdoors, mainly since I live in Kentucky. Probably time for me to train a little bit? Climbing is just way more fun haha 

Climbing is way more fun!  Though its funny — when you mentioned doing the MB V8’s (savage btw!!) amongst many others im sure, I’m like, “wait isn’t that training?”  

That’s making up 75% of my “training” right now.  It’s low hanging fruit as I haven’t spent a lot of time on a board before.   

But I imagine you’re referring to off-the-wall training at this point.  I imagine if you’ve gotten as far as you have without fucking around with much hangboarding, an ole fashion high intensity, low volume max hangs could be a nice stimulus.  Sounds like some people do them before a board session — and maybe shorten their board sessions by a little.  

3 weeks of max hangs (2 sessions/week), deload week, and then switch back to MB being the primary with 1 max hang session per week.  After three weeks and deload, rotate back now your power has caught up to your new found strength.  Idk, just a thought from someone who doesn’t climb as hard you! lol  

Michael Azevedo wrote:

I’m like, “wait isn’t that training?” 

definitely a form of training. for someone who hasn't specifically trained their fingers or climbed on a board much, it would be interesting to see max hang numbers before and after a block consistently climbing on the board

John Clark wrote:

Strength, but may have just been learning to crimp smaller edges. Warp factor is a 2-3 move wonder if you have the endurance to punch through the filler moves. At least it was when I did it pre break.

What broke?

Tyler Shopshire wrote:

What broke?

I hear that the flake you hit after the traverse left and before the pencil crimp broke off and is now a flat edge and not an incut. Happened sometime last summer i heard

Adam bloc wrote:

OR have fun trying to climb harder and your body will adapt. These numbers are only a correlation, not a prediction. 

These companies test large amounts of people who have already sent these grades, then roast you that your fingers need to be X to send Y, sell you a cookie cutter max hang program to get X fingers, then when you don't send Y this season, sell you another premium coaching package to tell you that you "wow you're already strong enough to do this, you just need to climb more, footwork, better tactics, yada yada"

but for comparison I can hang 120% BW one armed on a 8mm. Working on getting my first V5 on a Hueco trip August 2024 that I have really high hopes for and will in no way be a let down.

your numbers would be far above the world record, which would be hilarious. i'm guessing this is either wrong or a typo. since this is mountainproject, i'll assume it's both.

my 20mm hang is 150% bw on one arm. this puts my theoretical at a true v15. to put that into perspective, alex megos has 130% for a one armed on a 20mm and adam ondra is 110%. i can hang one armed hang an 8mm at 100% bw for about 2 s, which doesn't even qualify as a hang. someone able to do 8mm for 120% bw would be far beyond me. by bw, i am 20% beyond most pro climbers, and i find this to be the case when climbing. when i'm not deloading, i do find most v10 and v11 to be flashable. finger strength is necessary, but not sufficient, for hard climbing. no one argues that strength thresholds will instantly yield results, but none of the good climbers have weak fingers. currently, yves is the only other climber that has numbers anywhere near that high and is largely considered the strongest climber.

but this also has larger implications too. most pro climbers are only rated for v13. many or all of the v15s have been downgraded - especially internationally. which is fair, there are many more climbers now that climbing has become more popular. in my opinion, this objective test should be the maximum claimable grade. for example, alex megos can't send anything harder than v13 because he's simply not rated for a v14 at all.

strong fingers are only kind of impressive in the context of climbing. however, climbing has several metrics that need to be maintained that aren't as discussed. campus board numbers are just as important. being able to move is just as important and requires just as much training. it's strong fingers while maintaining good campus board numbers that's impressive. you'll find that 159 isn't difficult for any gym bro, it's only impressive for climbers trying to maintain strong fingers concurrently.

This is an interesting topic, and I'm glad it hasn't devolved into a typical dumpster fire.

145 lbs, max hang +60 lbs, 20 mm lattice rung, half crimp.

Max redpoint 13d (two of them), but they were both multi-season projects that I projected into submission and suited my strengths - lots of checkpoints, mostly endurance, nothing harder than V6 on route.  I've sent many more 13c's, some fairly quickly, and over a wider-range of styles.

Max outdoor boulder V8, same indoors. Several 6's and 7's on the 2016 moonboard (which I find easier), several 6's on the 2019 moonboard (which I find way more sandbagged). Most of my bouldering training is used with circuits in mind where I'll get V6-8's dialed and then lap them rather than "projecting" hard boulders indoors. I like project bouldering outdoors, but haven't made it a priority compared to route climbing.

I've always prioritized outdoor climbing, usually getting out 100+ days a year. My fingers are by far the weakest thing indoors, though outdoors I find I can hang holds that I couldn't imagine inside.