CMV: 'Biner Block Single Strand Rappel is the way

...ideally on extension and always with a third hand.

CMV = change my view.

Looking to either learn about a more optimal general rappel rig methodology, or disseminate knowledge around a best practice.

This is my standard setup for 98% of rappels, and generally presumes chains or rings with a 12 to 30 mm diameter. The most prominent risk here being weighting the retrieval strand rather than the blocked-load strand -- and this risk is mitigated by the practice of always loading the rappel strand and doublechecking the load security before removing the personal leash from the anchor. The minor risk being the biner causing a snag upon retrieval, but this is a situational concern and low-risk in anything steeper than 80 degrees, in my experience.

Anyone have any better ideas? Constructive criticism?

1) Knot one end of the rope with a double or triple fisherman's fatty stopper knot. Thread the rope through the chains or rings, and immediately secure the threaded end with a clove hitched biner and/or another double/triple fisherman fatty stopper. 

2) Biner block with a fat round stock triple action locker with a clove hitch, either (a) at the midpoint of a doubled-over rope for a one rope rappel, or (b) the end of a single strand for a two-rope or tag line attached. Back up the biner block clove hitch with the flat overhand joining the strands, if using a two-rope/tagline method. 

3) Secure the retrieval strand to your person via a fat, wide 'biner (hms, e.g. petzl william, or just a big basket quickdraw) and some slingage to your belay loop or leg loop. This will prevent the retrieval strand from being blown away in high winds.

4) rig your rappel device, on extension, with a third hand to the load strand. (I usually use a grigri extended on a 60cm dyneema sling, sometimes halved to 30cm)

5) MOST IMPORTANT: weight the load strand and anchor BEFORE disconnecting your anchor leash. confirm you are on the load strand. Double check that the biner block is snug up against the anchor chain/rings (i.e. it isn't caught up in some bullshit and will eventually pop into a snug position and shock load your shit) and unlikely to capsize/roll for whatever bizarre reason.

6) Rap to your next anchor point. If multipitch,clip in on your leash & weight the anchor BEFORE disconnecting from the rappel. Secure the rappel side of the rope to the anchor with plenty of slack, to avoid complicating your partners rappel. 

6a) If using a two rope or doubled single method, while your second is dealing with their rappel logistics, thread the retrieval strand through the anchors. When your entire party is secure at the anchor and you're ready to pull the rope, undo the tail knot on the rap strand, double check "No knots? No knots." on the rap strand, and pull the rope while continuing to feed it through the new anchor point. The previous retrieval strand will become the new rap/load strand, and the old rap/load strand will end up your new retrieval strand. It's great practice to keep count of your rappels and alternate with two different colors or weave patterns, e.g. odd rappels, load the blue rope, even rappels, load the red rope. ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK LOADS BEFORE REMOVING YOUR ANCHOR LEASH. 

6b) if using a tag line, ensure the tagline is secure to the anchor, pull the rope to the binerblock, secure the rope to the anchor, pull, thread, retie, repeat until back on terra firma.

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I've found this to be "faster" and "safer" (for want of better terminology) than most other methods I've come across. You need to stay sharp and not make dumb mistakes, but generally only just as much as any other rappel method. Been my standard methodology since using it to rap all 20+ pitches of Timewave Zero.

Thoughts?

Will try to update with photos for clarity when time and energy allows.

I'd like to potentially change your view about using a third hand with a grigri. It seems completely unnecessary and only introduces a novel failure mechanism: you slip and panic grip the grigri lever and the backup sling. I'm aware of this actually happening. The consequences of death gripping the naked tail end and the grigri lever seem mitigated. It also seems less likely to only death grip the lever, as the tail end will always be in reach. It's also very unlikely that you'll have an uncontrolled fall if you let go of the lever and rope entirely.

I would like to hear other peoples' thoughts, though.

Have you tried this in, say, Red Rock, with all the rope eating flakes? Let us know how it goes.

"always" is a strong word.

Another option, that doesn't involve a knot-block and the associated challenges, is that one person pre-rigs an ATC on both rope strands as normal. This fixes the two strands coming out of the ATC, and then the other partner (or partners) is able to do a single strand rap on the device of their choosing, usually a Grigri. Once the first rappeller reaches the next anchor, the second rappeller comes down as usual. Pull ropes, repeat.

You wrote:

ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK LOADS BEFORE REMOVING YOUR ANCHOR LEASH. 

More than once. This pretty well illustrates where the danger is. It introduces a failure method that is mostly not an issue when rapping on two ropes. If you get in a hurry and screw this up, you’re dead.

Also, I’m not really sure what makes this safer than the traditional method?

One thing I have started doing recently is tying the ends of the rope to the first person down. It prevents rapping off the end, having the knots get stuck anywhere, and you have to untie it before you pull the rope so it’s harder to forget the knot before pulling. The first person to the next station can start setting it up as soon as they get there and I’ve had good results and very efficient rapping this way. 

I did this coming down a slabby route because the middle wasn't marked. I found wear on the rope after only 6 or 7 raps. A knot will introduce a raised part of the rope which will incur more abrasion. And of course, you're putting that wear in a location that's the most inconvenient if you need to cut it out. 

Matt Z wrote:

Another option, that doesn't involve a knot-block and the associated challenges, is that one person pre-rigs an ATC on both rope strands as normal. This fixes the two strands coming out of the ATC, and then the other partner (or partners) is able to do a single strand rap on the device of their choosing, usually a Grigri. Once the first rappeller reaches the next anchor, the second rappeller comes down as usual. Pull ropes, repeat.

This is interesting, I like this. I guess you need a decent extension on the pre-rigged ATC so the second has some mobility while they wait?

One technique I learned from canyoneering is the stone knot - a slipknot with the loop clipped back on to the rope with a carabiner. This also fixes both strands quickly and with an easy release. We mostly used it to speed up larger canyoneering parties (one person can rig while another is descending, and alternatively, beginners can be top belayed with the other strand). But it would work for reducing risk for the leader when rappelling off a climb.

I concur with the rope wear concern when using a clove hitch on a carabiner block. I once core shot a rope in one rappel pull in a canyon in Utah using a clove hitch carabiner block - the clove hitch creates a sharp isolated raised bend on the rope that can get rubbed directly against the rock for the length of the pull, particularly on lower angle terrain. When using a knot/carabiner block these days I tend to use an overhand on a bight clipped to a carabiner and clipped back to the rap side, although of course that is somewhat situational depending on the size of the anchor rings you are dealing with. But when pulling the rope the overhand will tend to rotate out of the way and not get abraded.

More generally, I don’t use a knot/carabiner block when climbing, for many reasons including the possibility of snagged ropes and the added risk of rappelling on the wrong side. The ATC block described above is the best way to provide additional security for the first rappeller, allow for everyone to double each other’s system, and actually speeds up the rappelling process somewhat significantly.

Neither I nor anyone I know uses an extended grigri with a third hand. But I certainly do extend + third hand with an atc style device.

Foolishly responding to the snarky trolls:

Marc801 C wrote:

Have you tried this in, say, Red Rock, with all the rope eating flakes? Let us know how it goes.

I have not. I've only climbed in Red Rocks a couple times. Did Lotta Balls years ago and don't have strong memories other than the iron chickenheads. Mostly flailed on the boulders and routes around Calico Basin.

Sounds like you're trying to say that you don't think my methodology would work well on many Red Rocks climbs, due to the flakes, yeah? What method do you prefer in places/routes with many rope-snagging sandstone flakes?

Do you often climb in Red Rocks? If so, it's probably more feasible for you to be the one to try it and let us know how it goes. Might take more than two sentences though. Not sure you'd have the cognitive endurance. 

Rprops · moments ago · Nevada · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 2,422

(1) You lack reading comprehension skills, and your comment just solidifies your reputation as an idiot.

(2) You are very much on my ignore list. How are you even responding to my post? Aren't ignored users supposed to be blocked from responding to threads of the ignorer? Guess I'll have to ask in the Discuss MP forum.

(3) Go troll elsewhere. You contribute so little value to the climbing community. I hear pickleball is fun.

~~~~~~

One unexpected advantage of starting this thread -- I'm adding more shithead trolls to my "Ignore on MP and avoid ever climbing with or near them" list.

slo ta wrote:

I'd like to potentially change your view about using a third hand with a grigri. It seems completely unnecessary and only introduces a novel failure mechanism: you slip and panic grip the grigri lever and the backup sling. I'm aware of this actually happening. The consequences of death gripping the naked tail end and the grigri lever seem mitigated. It also seems less likely to only death grip the lever, as the tail end will always be in reach. It's also very unlikely that you'll have an uncontrolled fall if you let go of the lever and rope entirely.

I would like to hear other peoples' thoughts, though.

I'm not sure I fully understand your feedback, but I appreciate the engagement.

It sounds like you might be interpreting my post to say that I use *both* a grigri *and* a third hand (cord-prussik or autoblock or somesuch)? If that's the case -- I, personally, do not. I just use a grigri on rappel, most of the time. I agree that simply letting go of the device in a panic and letting the device engage it's fail-safe camming is the ideal action to take. Definitely scary to imagine someone panic gripping both the grigri lever and their supplemental third-hand.

By "always with a third hand" I meant some kind of fail-safe mechanism. For a gri-gri, the cam lever is the third-hand failsafe. For BD ATC tube, a prussik or auto-block wrap would be the 3rd hand. For an edelrid Megajul, the device's rope jam snare would be a third-hand, but I personally would probably back this up with an autoblock wrap - as I haven't used or studied the Megajul much - though I can imagine some would argue that might also be excessive and the device itself is fairly reliable as it's own failsafe. Etc etc for other devices with and without sufficient fail-safe mechanisms.

If you are suggesting the necessity of a third-hand autoblock on a grigri wrap, I'm simply confused and probably disagree.

Nate A · 1 hour ago · SW WA · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 0

You wrote:

ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK LOADS BEFORE REMOVING YOUR ANCHOR LEASH. 

More than once. This pretty well illustrates where the danger is. It introduces a failure method that is mostly not an issue when rapping on two ropes. If you get in a hurry and screw this up, you’re dead.

Also, I’m not really sure what makes this safer than the traditional method?

One thing I have started doing recently is tying the ends of the rope to the first person down. It prevents rapping off the end, having the knots get stuck anywhere, and you have to untie it before you pull the rope so it’s harder to forget the knot before pulling. The first person to the next station can start setting it up as soon as they get there and I’ve had good results and very efficient rapping this way.

Agreed that it's not necessarily "safer" than the traditional method, but I do personally find it more convenient and "simpler" dealing with one strand grip instead of two. I'm surprised more people don't know about or favor single strand raps, honestly.

I'd also contend that "ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK" should be *always* standard practice with the "traditional method" (which I presume you are referring to as the common 2 strand rap on a two-slot friction tube device, these days often taught as on extension and with a third hand autoblock wrap). To be clear, my 'ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK...' was meant as a general advisory part of the rappel process, not specific to the single strand 'biner block method exclusively.

In addition to making it harder to forget to untie the knots before pulling, tying the knots to the first person down also does seem to solve the issue of (a) rope ends with no stopper knots to prevent rapping off the end  & (b) losing the rope ends in the wind, so I dig that. Do you saddle-bag the strands, though? Seems like 2 monster loops in the rope might also introduce complications, maybe more so than freehanging ends? Or maybe not... What's your experience been there? 

Adam Fleming · 1 hour ago · AMGA Certified Rock Guide; SLC · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 441

I did this coming down a slabby route because the middle wasn't marked. I found wear on the rope after only 6 or 7 raps. A knot will introduce a raised part of the rope which will incur more abrasion. And of course, you're putting that wear in a location that's the most inconvenient if you need to cut it out.

Fair critique! Interestingly, I have not yet had this issue on my Beal Booster III. I probably don't climb multipitch as much as you, and Certified Rock Guide (active professional?), and certainly not much slabby multi-pitch -- usually more interested in more vert-y stuff. I'll definitely keep an eye out for that particular problem though. Agreed that it's more likely when a clove hitched biner is present, rather than just straight rope.

Tim N · 1 hour ago · Denver, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 71

More generally, I don’t use a knot/carabiner block when climbing, for many reasons including the possibility of snagged ropes and the added risk of rappelling on the wrong side. The ATC block described above is the best way to provide additional security for the first rappeller, allow for everyone to double each other’s system, and actually speeds up the rappelling process somewhat significantly.

Tim, very much appreciate your comment. You might actually be persuading me to try changing it up and going back to the "traditional" method. I presume the "method above" you reference is what Matt Z shared? 

Matt Z · 2 hours ago · Bozeman, MT · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 161
"always" is a strong word.

I feel I used "always" with the intended strength. What specific use of that word in my post do you take issue with, and why?

I do agree that the "pre-rig an ATC to the rope between the anchor and the first rappel ATC" method conveniently fixes the rope without the need for a biner block... but it still has the issues of -- (a) either the second rappel person is then short-leased to the anchor by their ATC (not a big problem but just clunky), or is clipping into rap while the second is down below (again, not a big problem, just not a dynamic that I love). (b) I also don't love the idea of one person doing a single strand rap on the presumption that the pre-rigged ATC will serve as a solid block. Seems like the autoblock wrap is essential in addition to the ATC. Even when I've had partners pre-rig their ATC and autoblock above my Biner-Block-single-strand-grigri rap, I've tended to insert a biner block carabiner at the anchor and just mentioned to my partner they can remove the biner block if they want to.

Austin Donisan · moments ago · San Mateo, CA · Joined May 2014 · Points: 614
I core shot the middle of a brand new 70m doing a single biner block rappel in Joshua Tree. At least I got 2 gym ropes out of it.

Oof, good point Austin. JTree Quartzite demands it's own special considerations. Condolences for your loss and congratulations for your gain.
(Hey man, thank you for being a stand-up dude. I have yet to be anything but appreciative of your forum contributions.)

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I think my fundamental reason for preferring and being more comfortable with "biner block single strand" more than "two strands in a tube" is that two strands in a tube can still go haywire if somehow you lose grip (standard hands and/or third hand) on one of the strands, or if you rap off the end of one strand - e.g. a 60m joined with a 70m, and the knot is forgotten (or insufficiently secure) on the 60m end. Another possibility in the 60/70m joined scenario is hitting the stopper on the 60m, jamming your device, and then dropping 5m as the ropes equalize in length. With the single strand biner block, there's only one essential stopper knot below the anchor to remember, and the consequences of forgetting it and rapping past it are equivalent to or lesser than the two strand rappel. I also just like not NEEDING to bring an ATC as well as a Grigri (though I do believe it's a generally valuable redundancy to bring both, as well as knowing how to rig a munter.)

(man, I'm really eager to read someone jumping in with "I agree, and usually do the same. 2 strand ATC on extension with a third hand autoblock is a reliable standard, but I also find the single strand biner block to be just as safe, and slightly more comfortable and convenient." I feel like that's a reasonable assessment, even if most people prefer the "traditional method". Have yet to be convinced otherwise. I also mostly do single-pitch sport climbs, so maybe that's a big reason why I find the single strand biner block to be super-convenient and just as safe when being lowered through mussy hooks or rings isn't an option.)

Brent Kelly wrote:

(I usually use a grigri extended on a 60cm dyneema sling, sometimes halved to 30cm)

One time I was simul rapping with a guy using a prussik below his grigri. One of the benefits of simuling is you have all the gear with you, so I asked him for a hand size cam, a red ball nut and a #7 offset nut. I built myself a solid (SERENE) anchor, went in direct (2 points, lockers) and pulled up the rest of my strand. After undoing the backup knot on my end, I ripped my grigri wide open and dropped that dumb ass 6 pitches to the deck. 

Adam Fleming wrote:

I did this coming down a slabby route because the middle wasn't marked. I found wear on the rope after only 6 or 7 raps. A knot will introduce a raised part of the rope which will incur more abrasion. And of course, you're putting that wear in a location that's the most inconvenient if you need to cut it out. 

I core shot the middle of a brand new 70m doing a single biner block rappel in Joshua Tree. At least I got 2 gym ropes out of it.

Joining with others above, I've also severely abraded the sheath at the clove when pulling ropes with this method. And these weren't on slabby routes, just one buldge to pull over near the anchor. I still do it but prefer the ATC block method now.

Why would you extend a grigri? Seems twisty and annoying.

You could also use 2 grigris with one on each strand.  There are a zillion ways of doing this and as long as it's an accepted and common method you're probably fine as long as it's done correctly.  The chances of you fucking up are so much higher then the chances of one of these methods being acceptable when another is not.  Both ropes through the device or only one and a block of some type, whichever one you think your own personal brain and muscle memory are least likely to fuck up.

I thread our rope through the rings. One climber puts his tube-style device on the rope with a locker and rappels to the ground or next anchor. The next climber does the same thing. We pull the rope.

I’ve been using this method for 30+ years and neither me nor my partners have died. People keep adding more and more steps and pieces of equipment. Climbers definitely die rappelling, but the number of fatalities to pitches rappelled is still very low. Keep it simple: double check your systems before weighting them, keep your hand(s) on the brake strand at all times, and watch the ends of your rope.

Brent Kelly wrote:

Anyone have any better ideas? Constructive criticism?

What is the problem you are trying to solve?

KISS == Keep It Simple Stupid

A Butterfly knot is a very useful knot to learn...

I've added some technical info on the "Fiddlestick" retrievable system (very popular in canyoneering, but also has wider applicability).

Allen Sanderson wrote:

What is the problem you are trying to solve?

KISS == Keep It Simple Stupid

The benefit of a single strand rappel on a biner block is that there is no need to use a third hand or extended rappel (presuming that one is rapping on a camming device or inertia reel rather than a tube), which actually simplifies your rappel by a great deal. Idk why op is using these with the biner block… all the drawbacks none of the benefits.

E: I see now that he isnt

Really the main drawback of this is the abrasion, which the alpine butterfly helps a lot. I personally use single strand on a camming device a lot (vergo or lov depending on the flavor of the day), but lately have been opting for an un extended unbacked alpine up dual strand. Super good enough for me.

another fun fact, using the Taz lov both climbers can simul rap on the same single strand. Hmmmmm

For multipitch rappels, my partner pre-rigs her ATC and third hand, I Gri-Gri onto one of the ropes below her.  It's way easier to ascend the rope with a Gri-Gri if I miss the belay station or some other weird jankiness happens.  For single pitch rappels, I biner-block with an alpine butterfly, but I only do it on pretty much vertical to overhanging terrain that doesn't have any flakes or cracks that look like they'd eat the rope, and I only do it off chains, quicklinks, or other small-diameter fixed gear that I'm not worried about the knot pulling through.  Traditional ATC rappel on anything else.  

As far as I'm concerned, there is no functional difference in safety between ATC rappel and Gri-Gri rappel.  I'm going to load either system before committing to it and removing my leash, so the issue of loading the pull-side for a blocked rappel is mitigated.  

Hey Brent.  

Just to clarify, you are talking about rappels with a doubled single strand, correct?  And you are suggesting that best practice might be to us a biner block and grigri, instead of an double rope device?  

I'm OK with that, although I'm not convinced it's generally safer.  For me, it largely comes down to what device I am climbing with, or what overall system I'm using.  I don't often climb routes with a grigri that require rappels, but your system seems fine for that.  

 I have used a single line and grigri on ice and alpine climbs, but in those case I have used a tag line and not a doubled single rope.  Of course, that's a whole other discussion.  

All best, 

Bruno

Matt Z wrote:

"always" is a strong word.

Another option, that doesn't involve a knot-block and the associated challenges, is that one person pre-rigs an ATC on both rope strands as normal. This fixes the two strands coming out of the ATC, and then the other partner (or partners) is able to do a single strand rap on the device of their choosing, usually a Grigri. Once the first rappeller reaches the next anchor, the second rappeller comes down as usual. Pull ropes, repeat.

This can work great, but it is not foolproof and can become very unsafe. If the person with the ATC isn't fully weighting the device, such as if they are standing comfortably on a ledge or just partially weighting it because they are tethered to the anchor or whatever, the rope will just slide right through when the Grigri person starts rapping. I've tested this with a partner who weighed about the same as me, and we were both really surprised how easily the rope would slip through unless all your body weight was on the ATC.

It's best to tie a backup blocking knot on the strand opposite of what the Grigri person raps, but below the ATC, so if the rope does slip the knot will block and prevent the person from cratering.