Gatekeeping in the community

This thread is the only thing keeping me going today, so don't stop

Addy S wrote:

Look, this is just my two cents but as someone who is actually young and active in the climbing scene I can say people have been nothing but kind and welcoming to me when I mention my interest in trad. No one has gate-kept me from it due to age or anything of the like. I've been given gear from older friends, mentored by fellows at the local crags, and given advice by Shingo Okhawa at my local gear shop. 

And of course, individual experience is only individual, but seeing as you aren't that young and appear to trad climb a lot according to your MP profile it seems like you don't have experience in the bias you claim I've internalized. I do, and I say that while financial gate keeping could exist(albeit not intentionally, more in that I believe our system teaches those who are financially insecure to be ashamed of that status and not ask for help and ask to be taught because they think people will be unwelcoming)

While I will say some people shy away from trad climbing due to the financial bias I think that speaks more to the need for people to step up and offer to mentor. Trad climbing needs to be protected, it's the most wild form of climbing in my opinion and truly special to be able to place your own gear. I don't think I've been gate kept at all. The only form of gate keeping I've experienced in the trad climbing community is from myself being hesitant to ask people to mentor me and take me out in the past. 

Kevin, as you seem to trad climb and be a knowledgeable, intelligent fellow who wants to fight for equal access, perhaps consider voting for improved public transit, supporting your local BIPOC and para climbing organizations, organize against threats to our wild lands, and mentor some damn youth for the love of God. Get off the couch telling me I'm internally oppressed and fight that oppression you see by offering to teach trad and take people out if you have the means to do so. I really don't think the best way to make trad more accessible is arguing with some 15 year old on MP.

When one is making points that are blanket assumptions about a person they are arguing with, whereas the person one is arguing with is only speaking to the conversation itself, and not making assumptions about the individual, it's generally not a good look. If you'd like a list of my mentoring and community building that I've done to make trad more accessible, I'd be happy to provide it upon being asked. It does appear though from your words that you're assuming that one cannot both argue with a 15 year old on MP and have considered doing anything IRL. 

Stating that internalized oppression exists, vs, stating that a post stereotyping an entire age group made by a member of that age group fits the definition of internalized oppression, are together not the same thing as telling a person that they are specifically oppressed. 

You seem like an awesome person who has their head on right making great points in your posts and I normally wouldn't come after you, but you did wander into a self-professed troll thread specifically designed to capture as many flies as possible with multiple separate honeypots. It'd be rude to set a trap and then never come back to check on it. Many a forum browser has been known to gnaw off their legs to escape abandoned traps, and that just seems rude. Sometimes there's competing goals in a thread and the person disagreeing with one small part of what you're saying isn't necessarily disagreeing with with everything else you've said, or even disagreeing with you personally. 

Sarah Z wrote:

This thread is the only thing keeping me going today, so don't stop

Fear not, Sarah! Trolls can’t stop, won’t stop!

John Clark wrote:

Is the lack of permadraws on sport cliffs and traditionalist’s refusal to bolt cracks a form of gatekeeping in climbing? Are less financially able people being intentionally kept from climbing by the high cost of gear required by first ascentionists who refuse to properly and permanently protect “their” climbs?

requiring perma-draws and bolts next to cracks would be a form of "gatekeeping, preventing less financially able people" from establishing FA's

Jay Crew wrote:

requiring perma-draws and bolts next to cracks would be a form of "gatekeeping, preventing less financially able people" to establish FA's

Great point Jay... Also good old fashioned booty rules allows dirtbag climbers to build a rack cleaning up after wealthy climbers who can't or won't take the time to retrieve their shit. 

Jay Crew wrote:

requiring perma-draws and bolts next to cracks would be a form of "gatekeeping, preventing less financially able people" to establish FA's

Then we must take back the means of producing climbing gear from nefarious “big climbing” companies, like Mtn Tools and Fish (not to be confused with Phish, The People’s Band).

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

 Many a forum browser has been known to gnaw off their legs to escape abandoned traps

John Clark wrote:

Then we must take back the means of producing climbing gear from nefarious “big climbing” companies, like  Fish 

I was gifted a slick, custom bolt bag full of mussy hooks by Fish

not goatkeeping

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

When one is making points that are blanket assumptions about a person they are arguing with, whereas the person one is arguing with is only speaking to the conversation itself, and not making assumptions about the individual, it's generally not a good look. If you'd like a list of my mentoring and community building that I've done to make trad more accessible, I'd be happy to provide it upon being asked. It does appear though from your words that you're assuming that one cannot both argue with a 15 year old on MP and have considered doing anything IRL. 

Stating that internalized oppression exists, vs, stating that a post stereotyping an entire age group made by a member of that age group fits the definition of internalized oppression, are together not the same thing as telling a person that they are specifically oppressed. 

You seem like an awesome person who has their head on right making great points in your posts and I normally wouldn't come after you, but you did wander into a self-professed troll thread specifically designed to capture as many flies as possible with multiple separate honeypots. It'd be rude to set a trap and then never come back to check on it. Many a forum browser has been known to gnaw off their legs to escape abandoned traps, and that just seems rude. Sometimes there's competing goals in a thread and the person disagreeing with one small part of what you're saying isn't necessarily disagreeing with with everything else you've said, or even disagreeing with you personally. 

Fair points! Unfortunately I did not realize until after I sent my first reply to you that this was totally a troll thread. Regardless, thank you for the good chuckle and the engaging conversation even though you were largely trolling. I'm glad you do do mentoring and seem to have put up lots of routes-that's super amazing and I hope to be able to do the same someday.

Addy S wrote:

As a teacher, I want to commend you for the writing abilities you have demonstrated in this thread. There is a proud lineage of historical climber-authors whose vertical prowess is matched by their prose style. Keep honing both crafts and you'll soon be among their numbers!

Do you have a subscription to the Climbing Zine?

And for the record, I agree with Kevin, but just wanted to encourage you to keep up the good work. ;-)

John Clark wrote:

How can you possibly justify this? If FAs really do have dominion over “their” routes, then they also have the responsibility to make them accessible to anyone who wants to climb them regardless of financial means, especially routes on public land.

Says who?  And why?  And where do you draw the line?  Bolt them?  Install an elevator so people that think "leading" isn't "inclusive" can top rope it safely?  This is such a wild and ridiculous concept, it makes me want to abandon climbing and pick up paddling.  Because at least in paddling you're still beholden to the water and can't dumb it down or dilute it so that ninnies incapable of risk assessment and who have extreme risk aversion can still feel "included".  This is the most preposterous assertion I've ever seen.  

Yes, it’s very encouraging to see young climbers like Finn and Adalayde joining in the fray.   Keep up the good work.  

Hopefully they’re not just very sophisticated bots! Lol.

Edit:   Oh Jake…..smh 

Mark Pilate wrote:

Yes, it’s very encouraging to see young climbers like Finn and Adalayde joining in the fray.   Keep up the good work.  

Hopefully they’re not just very sophisticated bots! Lol.

Edit:   Oh Jake…..smh 

Thanks Mark, fortunately the bots haven’t infiltrated this thread. Right?

I think Jake is probably my 3rd favorite person to not get past the first post.

Dear Jake,

It is preposterous because it is meant to be.

The mighty first post:

Finn Lanvers wrote:

Thanks Mark, fortunately the bots haven’t infiltrated this thread. Right?

Can’t say for certain.  Pretty sure Fritz is a bot generated by goats to keep tabs on us and promote their agenda  

But Bots don’t climb ice, that’s for sure.   At some point, post up a pic of you using those screws you won earlier this year…pressure is on now. Haha. 

Adalayde Scott is easily the most sensible author in this goby poking thread. I vote Adalayde to be the next Climbing President.

Addy S wrote:

I'm glad you do do mentoring and seem to have put up lots of routes-that's super amazing and I hope to be able to do the same someday.

If you find yourself in Yosemite in that bright future of first ascenting, hit me up; I'm always game to show people the ropes and the drill bits and the hammers and the boredom and the pain and the isolation and the lack of respect and the ridicule and all the rest of what comes with putting up routes. 

John Clark wrote:

I think Jake is probably my 3rd favorite person to not get past the first post.

Dear Jake,

It is preposterous because it is meant to be.

The mighty first post:

Ah, I see I see.  Well, I shall hereby withdraw my condemnation.  Not that it should have mattered for much to begin with.  

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

If you find yourself in Yosemite in that bright future of first ascenting, hit me up; I'm always game to show people the ropes and the drill bits and the hammers and the boredom and the pain and the isolation and the lack of respect and the ridicule and all the rest of what comes with putting up routes. 

Boredom? I think you got carried away.