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Seneca Rocks Accident 8/5

alpinist 47 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 0

The belayer did not feel the weight of the climber loading the rope!

this seems important 

how could that be the case?

pinching of the rope on the rock by the carabiner?

condolences to all involved …. Very sad

Matt Barryman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2021 · Points: 0

I’m going to send my pictures of the cut rope to Ryan J at HowNotTo, I personally removed them from this thread as the family asked me to, but I feel like maybe if he saw them we could find out more. Or at least come to a more complete conclusion 

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

rope should go to a lab and be tested for contaminants.

Tyler Murray · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2023 · Points: 0

I was brought here from HowNot2's video and I have a theory based on Patrick Hoffman's report and Thomas Edward's witness report that this failure was a combination of a pinched rope causing high fall factor and core failure while abrasion caused sheath failure. I believe hotos of the equipment (rope, carabiner etc) and the rock where failure occurred would help confirm and perhaps others with more knowledge of rope failure can comment if this makes sense.  

Patrick Hoffman wrote:


Climbing above the last piece and not finding additional protection, the leader called down to the belayer, informing them that he was going to jump/fall (acknowledging it was “going to be a big one”).  The leader then let go, falling somewhere between 11-12 feet before loading the rope.  The belayer reported having time to take in maybe 2-4 feet of slack before hearing the very loud “gunshot” of the rope exploding.  The belayer never felt the falling climber load the belay and the leader fell approximately 130 feet to the ground.  

Belayer never feeling load indicates it was taken elsewhere, most likely at the carabiner where failure was determined to occur. This would have caused a near factor 2 fall regardless of whether belayer was pulling slack in while climber fell. Based off the information available it does appear the rope was pinched between the carabiner and slab and this pinching of the rope would have put compression force on the rope. Others have already theorized about rope shear failure which is similar to my theory albeit I don't think it was a true shear failure.

Evidence points to the rope being cut by the carabiner on the extended alpine draw attached to the #3 Camalot.  The carabiner attached to the fully extended alpine draw was found lying on a slabby portion of rock just below the #3 with the fuzzy remains from the sheath inside the carabiner.  No other sheath material was found on any rock edges or face.  Photos from the accident scene show approximately 7’ of rope extending from the tie-in at the leaders harness.  There was 3”-4” of core exposed where the rope cut.  The core was “exploded”.  The individual bundles of the core were all cut at the same length indicating a definitive “cut” versuse extended shredding over an edge..   If the belayer took in two-three pulls of rope (2’-4’?) the leader could have been 9’-11’ above his last piece when he let go.

No sheath material being found on rock is one detail that may disagree with this theory but perhaps it just wasn't deposited on rock (more likely if rock was sharp) or it fell off (sounds like investigation was done the next day).

If I interpreted this correctly there was 7 feet of rope attached to the climbers harness and at the end of this rope there was 3-4 inches of core exposed and the core was all cut at the same point. I don't know the fine points on rope failure but the sheath failure occurring at a different point than the core failure is what caught my eye and sparked this theory. If it is common for core and sheath to be at a different point (sheath retracts 3-4% etc) then this theory is less plausible.

One tragic fact, had the carabiner in question moved just two inches left or right, it would no longer have been laying on rock, but hanging in free space, as the slab came to a point just below where the carabiner was laying.  

If I am interpreting this correctly there appears to have been some sort of edge (whether sharp, curved etc) present below and to both sides of the carabiner where failure occurred. This is supported by Thomas Edwards witness report. Did that edge happen to be 3-4 inches away from the carabiner and coincide with the difference in core vs sheath failure length (sounds like it would be close)?  

Thomas Edwards wrote:

Simple j malarkey was the route. Right after the first pull going into the third pitch. The rope was definitely taught against a sharp edge and the tension created by the fall was enough to go through the rope. I’d say the rope was 9.5-.7 ish. He tried to down climb to his second piece but it didn’t seem like he was comfortable doing so based on what we witnessed. He was frozen in that awkward looking corner for about 20 minutes before deciding to take the drop.
I guess at this point if you want to know the details you can send me a dm, it’s been long enough at this point.

So to sum up my theory.

High fall factor due to rope being pinched between carabiner and slab.
Rope sheath was compromised/failed by contact on edge below carabiner. Sheath failure may have occurred either before or after core failure.
Rope core being pinched between carabiner and slab created a stress concentration. I believe the core failing in tension at this point would have caused the gunshot sound and exploded nature of failure whereas cut or shear failure would have been quieter and a more obvious cut.

 As per HowNot2's request I will proposed a couple tests for him to run based on this theory.

1) What effect does compressing/pinching a rope have on its tensile strength? He should be able to test this with some sort of rope clamp and it would be interesting to see these effects both on pull test and drop test.
2) Rope strength effects of a drop test over an increasingly abrasive/sharp edge.

Anyways figured I would mention this theory and I am curious if someone with more knowledge of rope failure can confirm if the exposed core is common or supports a theory like this?

Fehim Hasecic · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 215

 “From the top of the second pitch, the leader placed a 0.75 Camalot just above the belay before initially attempting to climb up and left which would have taken the leader to the Muscle Beach finish (5.8).  Encountering a wasp nest, the leader stepped back down to the belay and then stepped  down again and right about 5 feet from the belay.   The leader then placed a second 0.75 Camalot before moving up and left to a second alcove, about 8’ above and to the right of the belay.  Here, the leader placed a #3 Camalot in a shallow, slightly flaring pocket.  (This piece was found with both extended and non-extended alpine draws attached.)  At this point, the second .75 Camalot was removed to prevent excessive rope drag.

The leader attempted to move up and right from this stance, which is the proper direction for the standard finish.  This requires the leader to move out over a roof on a short 4’ face and is  very exposed.  Though there is gear here, you cannot see it until you have committed to the that section of face and then the placement is behind you and at your waist.  (The hand holds here could be described as less than inspiring as this is one of the places water drains off the crag above, adding a polished feel to the rock.)  The leader stepped back down to the previous stance and discussed options with the belayer.  During this period,  the sun was peeking over the top, making route finding more difficult.  The climbing team discussed options before the leader decided to move up and left.

Climbing above the last piece and not finding additional protection, the leader called down to the belayer, informing them that he was going to jump/fall (acknowledging it was “going to be a big one”).  The leader then let go, falling somewhere between 11-12 feet before loading the rope.  The belayer reported having time to take in maybe 2-4 feet of slack before hearing the very loud “gunshot” of the rope exploding.  The belayer never felt the falling climber load the belay and the leader fell approximately 130 feet to the ground.”

Can someone that knows this climb chime in? According to this description the leader was about 20ft above the belay with 2 pieces in when he took the fall? Seems like in a mostly straight line above the belay. What would then cause belay side of rope not to load then on such a short run and only two pieces?

Condolences to all involved.

Matt Barryman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2021 · Points: 0
Nick Goldsmith wrote:

rope should go to a lab and be tested for contaminants.

Actually a way better idea! Most definitely 

Mr Rogers · · Pollock Pines and Bay area CA · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 72

First, my deepest condolences to those effected by this tragedy.
My heart feels for the loss of your friend/family. From comments on Ryans video it is clear Danny was a loved human and will be missed deeply.

A possibility all based upon info proposed here and is nothing more than a imaginable scenario:

Rope sheath cut on sharp edge below carabiner to expose the core below the proposed pinching carabiner.
then rope slides up on the core strands to only be stopped by the sheath against the biner, acting like a stopper knot of sorts.
rope severs with loud bang as core strands give.

This also might support the belayer not feeling the "catch" before the total failure.
Here is a link to a video better illustrating the theory.

Doug S · · W Pa · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55

Even Ryan in his video repeats the conventional wisdom that the only way to F2 is falling at P2+ anchor w/o another piece in, but in light of this accident we have to chuck that. Under the right conditions you could F2 (or worse) any time you’re above protection and there’s almost nothing your belayer can do because he’s out of the system at that point. 

David Engel · · Santa Rosa, CA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 320

Can someone comment on the diameter of the rope?  

Tradiban · · 951-527-7959 · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 212
Doug S wrote:

Even Ryan in his video repeats the conventional wisdom that the only way to F2 is falling at P2+ anchor w/o another piece in, but in light of this accident we have to chuck that. Under the right conditions you could F2 (or worse) any time you’re above protection and there’s almost nothing your belayer can do because he’s out of the system at that point. 

Omg no. There was no FF2 here. It was a sharp edge.

Victor Creazzi · · Lafayette CO · Joined Nov 2022 · Points: 0
Tradiban wrote:

Omg no. There was no FF2 here. It was a sharp edge.

If the rope blocks at the top piece with no pay out, it is at least ff2.

Mr Rogers · · Pollock Pines and Bay area CA · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 72

I feel like the last video I linked doesn't quite illustrate the scenario I laid out well enough. So here is another one that better shows how it could jam the sheath into the biner, putting the core into dire straights.
https://youtu.be/foDKyZuqgGc

Tradiban · · 951-527-7959 · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 212
Victor Creazzi wrote:

If the rope blocks at the top piece with no pay out, it is at least ff2.

It didn’t.

Anna Barensfeld · · Zelienople, PA · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0

My sincere condolences to Danny’s family, friends, climbing partners, first responders and anyone else impacted by this tragedy.

I am monitoring this thread to better understand the accident specifics so as to be a better informed climber. That said, I am surprised by the endless focus on the rope and carabiner scenarios. Something went wrong there (and we’d all like to know exactly what) but whatever it was, it seems to be a very low probability, high consequence event. On the other hand, no one is talking about the fact that the deceased opted, evidently, to jump down from his last piece. If there’s any actionable learning to be had, it sure seems like it’s to never do this if it can be avoided. I’m not sure I understand this part of the accident. Why would he do that? If bailing, why not downclimb as far as possible or at least carefully and steadily weight the piece first to the best of his abilities? I must be missing something crucial here. Thanks for your help in understanding.

Anna Barensfeld · · Zelienople, PA · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0
Anna Barensfeld wrote:

My sincere condolences to Danny’s family, friends, climbing partners, first responders and anyone else impacted by this tragedy.

I am monitoring this thread to better understand the accident specifics so as to be a better informed climber. That said, I am surprised by the endless focus on the rope and carabiner scenarios. Something went wrong there (and we’d all like to know exactly what) but whatever it was, it seems to be a very low probability, high consequence event. On the other hand, no one is talking about the fact that the deceased opted, evidently, to jump down from his last piece. If there’s any actionable learning to be had, it sure seems like it’s to never do this if it can be avoided. I’m not sure I understand this part of the accident. Why would he do that? If bailing, why not downclimb as far as possible or at least carefully and steadily weight the piece first to the best of his abilities? I must be missing something crucial here. Thanks for your help in understanding.

Rereading the report again, I suppose the assumption is he could not downclimb to his last piece so he had to jump/fall from above it? And that it was impossible for him to place any more pro.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

Because sometimes you cant down climb and a controlled jump/ fall feels safer than an uncontrolled fall. This is not a freak accident. Sharp edges are something you should always be on the lookout for. This climb and this area has them in abundance.   I usually have a roll of hockey tape on my person and have been known to tape over sharp edges on occasion. I also climb with double ropes on this cliff and many others.  The victim did not do anything really wrong other than getting off route and having to take a fall in a bad spot. the biggest takeaway should be to try not to climb yourself into a bad spot and don't take falling for granted. 

Anna Barensfeld · · Zelienople, PA · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0
Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Because sometimes you cant down climb and a controlled jump/ fall feels safer than an uncontrolled fall. This is not a freak accident. Sharp edges are something you should always be on the lookout for. This climb and this area has them in abundance.   I usually have a roll of hockey tape on my person and have been known to tape over sharp edges on occasion. I also climb with double ropes on this cliff and many others.  The victim did not do anything really wrong other than getting off route and having to take a fall in a bad spot. the biggest takeaway should be to try not to climb yourself into a bad spot and don't take falling for granted. 

I guess I’d like to hear more discussion about how to proceed to take all possible precautions should we find ourselves in Danny’s situation or similar, if there’s any precaution to be taken other than taking a controlled fall vs uncontrolled. I feel that’s far more actionable than hoping that our biners and ropes don’t end up in this precise, highly unlikely scenario (and yes, of course extending and avoiding sharp edges as far as possible etc. etc.). In other words, is there anything that could have been done better by Danny? Please don’t read this as criticizing him. I’m not. I just want to learn from this tragedy.

NateC · · Utah · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 1
Anna Barensfeld wrote:

I guess I’d like to hear more discussion about how to proceed to take all possible precautions should we find ourselves in Danny’s situation or similar, if there’s any precaution to be taken other than taking a controlled fall vs uncontrolled. I feel that’s far more actionable than hoping that our biners and ropes don’t end up in this precise, highly unlikely scenario (and yes, of course extending and avoiding sharp edges as far as possible etc. etc.). In other words, is there anything that could have been done better by Danny? Please don’t read this as criticizing him. I’m not. I just want to learn from this tragedy.

The discussion is focused on the failure mode of the rope (in my opinion) because it's the variable with the most mystery. If you climb long enough, you WILL climb yourself into a position that you can't go up or down and have to take a controlled fall. I've accepted the focus on the rope failure mode to be because most participating in the discussion have taken for granted the understanding that the controlled fall ("jump") was necessary, likely from personal experience doing the same themselves. 

If time isn't spent trying to define and understand the scenario where what is assumed to be an otherwise healthy and functional rope suffered a catastrophic failure,d we may end up seeing a repeat. In my 20+ years of climbing, I have actually seen discussions like these change how we climb and protect climbs. It may not seem important, but if it's not discussed to some end then we risk losing more beloved climbing friends.

Your point is also valid for discussion, but it's not more or less actionable than working to understand the failure mode of the rope. It's just a different area for discussion in this accident.

Patrik · · Third rock from Sun · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 30
Anna Barensfeld wrote:

I guess I’d like to hear more discussion about how to proceed to take all possible precautions should we find ourselves in Danny’s situation or similar, if there’s any precaution to be taken other than taking a controlled fall vs uncontrolled. 

Practice and get really good at downclimbing. If you can downclimb one grade less than you can lead, it will drastically reduce your need for jumping/falling.

Practice and get really good at placing gear in challenging places. Lots of people are only good at placing cams these days, because that's the only gear they ever place. Get yourself some brassies and ballnuts and train your eyes to find good gear placements in between the good cam placements (not true for all types of rock). ... and, no, the development of new, fancy cams have not yet made basic nutcraft obsolete.

Tradiban · · 951-527-7959 · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 212
Anna Barensfeld wrote:

I guess I’d like to hear more discussion about how to proceed to take all possible precautions should we find ourselves in Danny’s situation or similar, if there’s any precaution to be taken other than taking a controlled fall vs uncontrolled. I feel that’s far more actionable than hoping that our biners and ropes don’t end up in this precise, highly unlikely scenario (and yes, of course extending and avoiding sharp edges as far as possible etc. etc.). In other words, is there anything that could have been done better by Danny? Please don’t read this as criticizing him. I’m not. I just want to learn from this tragedy.

Down climbing is an under-rated skill, if impossible, placing a piece just to take in is much preferable to a fall.

Routefinding. Look ahead as far as you can see to plan out the moves and the gear.

Rope management. Envision where the rope will run in the event of a fall, when in doubt extend.

Gear placement and conservation. It may be better to run it out so the rope can have a straighter line and keep gear for future placements, ties into “route finding”.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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