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John Clark wrote:

Why does it matter? 

If you don't do a good job of keeping a bolt side and a rope side on your draws then both sides will get manky and sharp and will wear out your rope considerably faster. Your ropes will get fuzzy much less quickly if you don't put it through biners that frequently go on bolts. And once your rope gets fuzzy it starts picking up dirt more and accelerates wear (see a recent Hard Is Easy video on that topic) so staying on top of this can mean your ropes last quite a bit longer. 

Ricky Harline wrote:

If you don't do a good job of keeping a bolt side and a rope side on your draws then both sides will get manky and sharp and will wear out your rope considerably faster. Your ropes will get fuzzy much less quickly if you don't put it through biners that frequently go on bolts. And once your rope gets fuzzy it starts picking up dirt more and accelerates wear (see a recent Hard Is Easy video on that topic) so staying on top of this can mean your ropes last quite a bit longer. 

So how long should my ropes last? Might explain me blowing through like 3 ropes a decade. 

John Luke Lusty wrote:

+1 to discourage shaming your fellow climbers. When in doubt - ask first!

I just looked up the definition of shaming. Turns out the synonyms are politely educating and informing less experienced people which is acceptable around mature adults not part of sensitive generations that don’t like facts and truth. 

abandon moderation wrote:

Ropes should last between 1 day and 10 years. That's:

• 10 years: the rope has been coiled and sitting on a shelf. Retired per the manufacturers specs.

Umm. No. A rope sitting in a cool dry place never used doesn’t need to be retired after 10 years.

I believe Beal says 15 years total such as 5 years stored and 10 in use, which is still conservative. 

Greg D wrote:

I just looked up the definition of shaming. Turns out the synonyms are politely educating and informing less experienced people which is acceptable around mature adults not part of sensitive generations that don’t like facts and truth. 

What sort of dictionary did you use?  The one in your head where you tell yourself you're right, even though you're wrong?  Try Merriam-Webster.

Todd Jenkins wrote:

What sort of dictionary did you use?  The one in your head where you tell yourself you're right, even though you're wrong?  Try Merriam-Webster.

Thank you for sharing your generation. 

Greg D wrote:

Thank you for sharing your generation. 

The generation that gets knowledge and information from books?  Not the generation of being a jerk and then trying to twist and bend words and definitions in an ill attempt to avoid being named a jerk.  Your interpretation of the definition of shaming is more closely synonymous with the definition of narcissism.

It's probably already too late, but before the thread totally dissolves into name calling, I'd like to say a couple of things.

I started hanging mussys because I got tired of reading about fellow climbers dying from lowering accidents.

Nobody should die on a sport climb.

So I believe strongly, that climbers should do whatever they need to make sure their party is safe, esp on single pitch sport routes.

If this means toproping through the anchors, then go for it!

Preserving the mussys is NOT worth dying for.

OTOH, I think most climbers can safely use their own draws and preserve the lifespan of the anchors by minimizing TR and lowering wear.

In the long run, maybe the norm should change, but in the meantime, I personally would appreciate it if folks could use their own draws.

@ Salamonizer- thanks for brining up the topic of private crags- but I hope that most developers are more like Ricky. I deeply appreciate the typically unsung efforts of those who put up new routes and even new areas for the rest of us to enjoy. Just thinking about it makes me reconsider my own meager contributions. Maybe I will keep hanging mussys after all.

abandon moderation wrote:

What year did you start climbing, John? I don't think I believe you when you say you've gone through only 3 ropes in the last 10 years.

But I digress, I will continue to answer the questions that you already know the answers to since I posted this in the beginning climbers forum:

Ropes should last between 1 day and 10 years. That's:

• 10 years: the rope has been coiled and sitting on a shelf. Retired per the manufacturers specs.
• 1 day: the rope has been weighted over sharp or abrasive things until it's core shot. Retired per fear for your life.

I'd guess my ropes typically last a year, but it's hard to track the wear since I have multiple ropes being used for multiple purposes. The rock being climbed on definitely affects the wear, eg I've had some sharp flakes shred a rope in a day, and I have a 10 year old rope that has mostly just seen gym use and still looks pretty good. Also I've a sharp edge on my worn out belay device destroy a rope from rappelling within a few months.

Of course, no one but your partner will care if you like to drag your (their?) rope over abrasive things. Plus, it's good for the economy.

EDIT to appease Greg D:

Yes, follow the manufacturers recommendation for max rope life. If they say 10 years, then 10 years. If they say 15 years, then 15 years. If they say 100 years... you guessed it, then 100 years.

There is a video out there of Tom Randall progressively cutting into his rope and whipping on it. Anyone know where it is? I think he got down to like 2 core strands before it actually failed in a gym setting.

a.m., Technically, I was a dirty comp kid for 2 years in 2007-2008. Quit cold turkey to run ultras for a few years, then got back into climbing due to running injuries in late 2015. I have fully retired 2 ropes since then, after about 3200 pitches. I think about 3/4 of those were roped up. Done a couple laps up manure pile and East wall at the leap.

Todd Jenkins wrote:

The generation that gets knowledge and information from books?  Not the generation of being a jerk and then trying to twist and bend words and definitions in an ill attempt to avoid being named a jerk.  Your interpretation of the definition of shaming is more closely synonymous with the definition of narcissism.

You are taking this way too seriously.  Consider switching from tighty whities to boxers.

There is nothing wrong with politely mentioning the local ethic regarding fixed hardware.

reboot wrote:

Are they? https://climbtech.com/products/top-anchor-hook/ How many AL biners would've worn thru instead, 50? It's a PITA to have to replace them on routes you don't intend to climb, otherwise maybe climbers should learn how to use a crescent wrench?

So $12 a route, plus time/energy. Doesn’t take many routes for that to add up (just ask Mark Dixon who has installed a lot of hooks in CCC on his own dime). ASCA gave hardware to put hooks on pretty much all of Cactus Cliff at Shelf. My friends did the work - it was a huge undertaking and I’m sure they aren’t anxious to give up that many of their own climbing days to repeat that effort.

@Cherokee - have replaced very worn/sharp hooks in CCC and Penitente (not sandstone).

Agree - better to TR through the hooks than die, but I don’t think that is usually the choice. Someone put the route up and presumably can safely clean their draws if nobody else in their party can do it…. Climb the route twice in that case?

I used to do a lot of maintenance, but I have to admit I’m one of those who burned out. It was super frustrating to be working my butt off replacing worn anchors and have people toproping on the hardware I literally just replaced on an adjacent route. In those cases it was rings, but seems like we should try to preserve the hardware (even hooks) as much as possible and use our own gear. 

 Since a uniform code of behavior looks to be nearly impossible, I'm suggesting  not replacing the hardware until back up gear starts appearing. It's hard to imagine sharp edge wear becoming a problem if the rigging and wear is done the same way.

Victor Creazzi wrote:

 Since a uniform code of behavior looks to be nearly impossible, I'm suggesting  not replacing the hardware until back up gear starts appearing. It's hard to imagine sharp edge wear becoming a problem if the rigging and wear is done the same way.

A uniform code of behavior is incredibly simple-

If it's safe, use your own gear for toproping and lowering. Full stop.

As for your suggestion, what do you think folks are doing now? 

Erika has already said she has replaced worn mussys. I've replaced a couple myself, grooved after less than 3-4 years.

I've replaced lots of worn aluminum biners.

Most people are fairly good crag stewards if they know what to do.

But I guess carrying two extra draws up a sport route is too big a burden for some people.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

A uniform code of behavior is incredibly simple-

If it's safe, use your own gear for toproping and lowering. Full stop.

As for your suggestion, what do you think folks are doing now? 

Erika has already said she has replaced worn mussys. I've replaced a couple myself, grooved after less than 3-4 years.

I've replaced lots of worn aluminum biners.

Most people are fairly good crag stewards if they know what to do.

But I guess carrying two extra draws up a sport route is too big a burden for some people.

A uniform code is simple to write and describe, getting people to follow it not so much it appears.

I suspect that hooks and rings are being replaced way too early. Maybe if the wear became more evident people would start seeing why the stated code says what it says. If the hardware is always replaced early people see it as being 'magically supplied' for their use. The heavily worn hooks (half worn though)  tested  on 'How Not to' still failed at close to triple what a new carabiners are rated at. 

Mark, I do understand your frustration. I'm a wag bag volunteer with BCC filling distribution boxes far more frequently than seems possible and carting out litter and used wag bags on multiple occasions (yeah really) that people seem to feel entitled enough to just leave at the boxes. What got me to start volunteering was always finding the boxes empty.

Victor Creazzi wrote:

The heavily worn hooks (half worn though)  tested  on 'How Not to' still failed at close to triple what a new carabiners are rated at.

Again, it's not so much the strength but the sharp edges that remain.

Victor Creazzi wrote:

Mark, I do understand your frustration. I'm a wag bag volunteer with BCC filling distribution boxes far more frequently than seems possible and carting out litter and used wag bags on multiple occasions (yeah really) that people seem to feel entitled enough to just leave at the boxes. What got me to start volunteering was always finding the boxes empty.

Good on you for doing the wag bags.

I filled the box at the Slab back when I was working on some routes up there.

Filled the box at Der Freischutz a few times- that was aggravating since hikers would take the bags and also leave dog and human poop for someone else to carry out.

There is a climbing community- route developers, re-bolters, trail volunteers, wag baggers, guidebook authors, Board members, etc. They are hard to see, hidden amongst all the free riders. But it's good for me to be reminded of them once in a while.

The ClimbTechs are super cheap. In cost per material life, they make a ridiculous amount of good sense. They are also hardened steel, so they wear slower compared to others, especially stainless, which don't have as much material to wear through anyways.

Re: various observations of how fast a mussy has worn on a particular route somewhere. Great to know, but the real question is how many aluminum carabiners would have been burned through in the same length of time? What would those have cost?

If I made sure to only top rope through the same 2 personal aluminum carabiners of mine until they needed to be retired, again and again, instead of the random rotation of whichever quickdraws I have left, or which 2 lockers I decided to put on my quad, or I'm lowering off and use the steel mussys because how often do most of us actually camp out and run laps on a route?... If all the wear was going to 2 of my personal aluminum carabiners, I could certainly need to replace them every year or 2. Sending $14 to an org to buy climbtech mussys is way more efficient use of $14 than the $14 to $40 every year or two of aluminum carabiners for just me and a partner. $14 to an org gets probably 2.5+ climtechs and benefits far more people than just me and my partner for far far far more pitches than we would ever hope to get in a year. Sure of course, there are plenty of routes where I will need to use my own gear, because I get on a fair amount of trad, and not a perfect comparision as I do a fair amount of TR solo. To be expected... but cost per lifetime... yeah steel wins, wins big time.

As paradoxical as it may seem at first... if we all pitch in a bit towards steel for community use, and are fine with top roping through it, we all save in terms of our personal $ towards replacing our personal aluminum in the long run.

Think about it. Do some math and complain about unequal distribution if you have to, but good luck making a convincing economic argument in favor of aluminum.

Also, there's a point where the absurdity of a thing becomes apparent. Permadraws with aluminum don't make economic sense and the hard sport folks have accepted that. Sometimes aluminum is up on a route if there are not existing steel permas, with the intention that pretty much just 1 person is working it, then it comes down or is abandoned... but pretty much, if its climbed enough, and well loved enough, it gets steel. Is there such a thing as putting your aluminum draw at the crux bolt and falling on it instead of the steel one? Or is the ethic to bring your own steel perma, install it, and fall on it instead? Whats the conclusion here? Even steel permas are considerably thinner material than mussys and wear out to develop sharp edges pretty quick when its a popular route...

That meme is weird, thinking falling repeatedly for a few feet over and over on a carabiner will cause the same abrasion as a full 60m rope running through Mussys over and Over as Becky and Brayden fully weight their top rope the entire time.

We could also go to YouTube and Instagram and watch about 50 different videos of permadraws ripped off the wall, on the ground, biners broke, rock broken etc.. quite a few people have been injured by broken permadraws.

 Sometimes when I make comparisons, I like to use my brain musclez. 

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

I think it’s lowering off the climb that create the grooves. 

Thanks, Cap

Desert Rock Sports wrote:

[....] As paradoxical as it may seem at first... if we all pitch in a bit towards steel for community use, and are fine with top roping through it, we all save in terms of our personal $ towards replacing our personal aluminum in the long run.

Think about it. Do some math and complain about unequal distribution if you have to, but good luck making a convincing economic argument in favor of aluminum.

Interesting take, but could you not just use steel on your personals and have one carabiner that lasts your entire career? It's not like steel will weigh less in the future, so even if you don't "use it up", it can still be passed on to future generations.