The perfect blend between a trail runner and an approach shoe

I think it's interesting that the discussion immediately went to the most climbable running shoes, rather than the most runnable approach shoes. Perhaps that indicates that you guys are doing more running than climbing on your run/scramble routes? 

Generally (exceptions of course) I find I'd rather have an approach shoe for the climbing and deal with running in them. If I mess up on the climb, I might die. If I take an extra 15 min on the trail, nothing bad happens. Obviously it's different if it's 20 mi and one pitch of 5.0 vs 5 mi and 5 pitches of 5.5.

Also, on Mocc vs TC-- I weighed mine last summer for an overnight Sierra trip. The Moccs were maybe 30% lighter. Don't remember the exact numbers, but it was enough difference that I was glad to be aware of it.

J C wrote:

I think it's interesting that the discussion immediately went to the most climbable running shoes, rather than the most runnable approach shoes. Perhaps that indicates that you guys are doing more running than climbing on your run/scramble routes? 

I think the discussion actually moved towards: "It depends" - even in your last example you talk about going to the Sierras and bringing Moccs - I assume you mean as well as whatever shoes you walked in with, although that would take the "deal with running in them" to quite an extreme if you're not.  Maybe if I'm linking up Flatirons, I'll just wear TX's (although I'm frugal and like to save my approach shoe rubber so usually not). If I'm doing an 80 mile ridge traverse with a dozen 5.easy pitches, I'm wearing running shoes optimized for all-day comfort, and a pair of approach shoes for the cruxes. I'm not dealing with hiking in shoes downsized to climb better in. 

In fact, I think most scramble missions will have more not-scrambling in them - unless I'm downclimbing everything?

If you're bringing climbing shoes and want/need that security, I think the choice of just which shoe is more of a personal preference/depends on the terrain. Using TC Pros in the gym and Moccs on nails hard boulders? Fine with me. 

Maybe the idea of wanting climbable running shoes is more about getting comfortable with simply using running shoes - or whatever else you already brought, to do the pitch(es), without even needing to bring another pair of shoes - as a skill. 

Bill Schick wrote:

^^ How much does the shoe weigh now?  I’ve found climbing rubber is quite dense, so a full resole of it makes a runner pretty clunky and hardens up the heal cushioning significantly.  A 1/4 - 1/2 sole seems more ideal.

Weight difference is minimal. A 1/2 or 1/4 resole would just create a possible failure point.

Took them up Mt Emerson this morning. Easy route, but the shoes were perfect. Now just need to build in a scree gator that tucks into the cuff!

Long Ranger wrote:

I think the discussion actually moved towards: "It depends" - even in your last example you talk about going to the Sierras and bringing Moccs - I assume you mean as well as whatever shoes you walked in with, although that would take the "deal with running in them" to quite an extreme if you're not.  Maybe if I'm linking up Flatirons, I'll just wear TX's (although I'm frugal and like to save my approach shoe rubber so usually not). If I'm doing an 80 mile ridge traverse with a dozen 5.easy pitches, I'm wearing running shoes optimized for all-day comfort, and a pair of approach shoes for the cruxes. I'm not dealing with hiking in shoes downsized to climb better in. 

In fact, I think most scramble missions will have more not-scrambling in them - unless I'm downclimbing everything?

If you're bringing climbing shoes and want/need that security, I think the choice of just which shoe is more of a personal preference/depends on the terrain. Using TC Pros in the gym and Moccs on nails hard boulders? Fine with me. 

Maybe the idea of wanting climbable running shoes is more about getting comfortable with simply using running shoes - or whatever else you already brought, to do the pitch(es), without even needing to bring another pair of shoes - as a skill. 

That trip was a poor example for this thread, because it was a hike in, basecamp, alpine rock route style trip, so I had a pack for three nights. I only mentioned it because that's wh I happened to weigh my rock shoes. Normally I'd just take whatever I wanted for given rock type and climbing style.

I wore LS Helios SR (better rubber version, not available in N America now) on Mt Emerson a few years ago; it was fine, but wished I had worn approach shoes. Wore approach shoes on Tenaya Peak, and felt like I made decent time on the approach/descent. 

What are the particular benefits you get from a running shoe over an approach shoe? I can see many benefits, I'm just curious what is most important to you. I find that I can move nearly as fast in approach shoes as trail runners in most class 1-3 terrain, with small-med packs. If your experience is different I'd like to see what I could learn. I suspect my combination of approach shoes that fit me perfectly and young knees is helping me. I could probably run flat trail faster in running shoes, but there isn't too much of that where I go. I don't want to run the downhill any faster than I can in approach shoes, because I'm at the limit of safe speed anyway. 

Also, it's different between a route that's in your backyard and onsight soloing alpine terrain. If I lived in Boulder and wanted a good Strava time on a scramble, I understand how climbing mid 5th class in running shoes would be fine if you were familiar with the route.

JC: the discussion probably went there b/c the OP specifically referenced the TMC linkup, which is 10mi, minimum. 8+ miles (10+, minus climbing/scrambling distance) is a fair bit of running to do in TX2's, which the OP also referenced as "clunky."

The benefits are the increased cushion that one receives from a great running shoe, vs the limited cushion from the typical approach shoe. If you're not doing back to back days, i guess you can just deal with it but I like doing 2-3 days in a row, and don't really want sore knees after a 10-15mi day, if I can prevent it. Carrying something light like a Mocc and wearing Peg Turbos (with the new ZoomX foam) is a great way to accomplish this.

For reference purposes, here's the tread that seems to stick quite well to 5.5/5.6 slab, and climbs fine up to 5.6 moves.

A little late to this, but a shoe review by RoadTrailRun that recently caught my attention was the VJ Ultra. Apparently the shoe has a super sticky outsole, and fwiw, one of the reviewers lent it out to someone who does scrambles and said it was pretty good for that.

VJ Ultra shoe review

My new Scarpa Rapids came in the other day, and my initial impression is they might be a new favorite. Lighter than my Speedcross 4's and fit like a sock on my foot. Legit better fit than any other shoe I've worn in the past couple years. I haven't run in them yet, only wore them to the crag to break them in, but I'm excited to take em out this weekend. The climbing toe is solid, though I only got to test it out scrambling around the base. 

Obviously fit and sizing is relative, so if anyone's considering a similar purchase, I bought the Rapids in 43.5, which is a perfect vacuum fit with just a little wiggle room for my toes. I also wear 43 in LS Miura's, 42.5 in TC Pros, 43 in Scarpa mountain boots, 44 in the Salomon Speedcross series, FWIW.

Detrick S wrote:

Great thread, I'm in a similar boat, but my wide feet constrain options. I queried an ultra-runner/scrambler friend recently and he recommended the scarpa spins, esp. for ppl w wide feet.

If you're looking for a zero-drop shoe for better body mechanics, then the Altra Lone Peak's may be a good choice.

I have to disagree with the Lone Peaks. I have a pair and while I love them to run and hike in, they're awful for scrambling/approaching. Rubber is slippery on rock, and the wide toe box is extremely sloppy compared to approach shoes. 

Scarpa Rapids first impression part deux. 

The new shoes got a nice maiden voyage today, about 15 miles and 6000 ft of vert. A wet mix of trail, mud, steep heather, talus, and low-5th scrambling. 

Thoughts:

- they get utterly soaked. no surprise as they have a breathable/mesh upper, but I've probably gotten used to goretex shoes in the mountains so it was surprising in the moment. Not a good shoe to have to cross much snow in.

- you have to be fairly precise with the climbing toe. The lugs further back on the sole do not grip rock super well. I get the impression this might be a little unnerving on slab, but I haven't tried them on that yet.

- A little flexy for a climbing shoe (I know in the OP I complained about approach shoes being too stiff, I have a lot to complain about), especially cause you have to be so on your toes for a good edge. 

- I went out of my way to crack climb a little bit and they were surprisingly comfy foot jamming and felt solid. 

- As a trail runner/light hiker they are awesome. Felt like just the right amount of cushion underfoot, light, nimble, decent ankle support. Very grippy on dirt, grass, mud. 

- I was still happy with how they climbed despite the complaints above, that's just what stood out. They seem like they'd be great up to about 5.6 or so, which works for me. They're definitely a running shoe that can climb, rather than vice versa.

I didn't read through all of this but la sportiva used to make a trail runner with sticky rubber that had built in gaiters and a rand and lacing pretty far down. They weren't very stiff at all but a pair of super feet helped. They were the best shoes ever made for hiking! When they discontinued them, I bought 5 pair from sierra trading post. My dog ate one shoe from my last pair recently. Then she ate one shoe from a pair of tx2s, and for a while I wore  tx2 on one foot and that trail runner on the other foot haha. 

I like the HOKAs for a blended trail and approach/climbing shoe. My Speedgoat 4 has held up this summer but not sure if it will make it the entire way. Vibram Megagrip rubber works really well on easy 5th class. They're lighter than most approach shoes. You won't be doing extended crack climbing or too much 5th class stuff beyond 5.5 in these puppies but maybe they'll get ya by on a particular 5.7 move in a pinch if you're a strong climber. These are for climbers moving fast and light - not climbers with 40 lb packs. Probably best for climbers with knees or feet that want extra cushoning and will trade some shoe stability (not traction) to get it. They have wide EE sizes, used to advertise size 15 but only see 14 in men's now. Haven't tried their spike shoes but may get a pair for the fall weather in the Tetons and see how they fly on verglas and thicker ice on easy terrain.

I've been running and scrambling in the new Scarpa Rapids for about a month now. I was intrigued as they are categorized as an "approach shoe" even though they are clearly a runner. They are fairly good at climbing and running (both are on opposite sides of the spectrum as far as I'm concerned). The front of the shoe softens up quite a bit over time and my forefoot gets a little tired from running on the babyheads in the Flatirons. I do think this is the perfect shoe for me for routes like the North Ridge of the First Flatiron, Second Flatiron, and Angel's Way. I'm not confident enough in them yet to take them up the First Flatiron Direct East Face. Overall, I've been pretty dang happy with what they are trying to accomplish.

Hope this helps a little bit.

Nick Niebuhr wrote:

I have to disagree with the Lone Peaks. I have a pair and while I love them to run and hike in, they're awful for scrambling/approaching. Rubber is slippery on rock, and the wide toe box is extremely sloppy compared to approach shoes. 

Thank you! I won't waste my money!

Evan Gerry wrote:

Anyone worn the LS Akyra? I have ultra raptors and looks like those have a more capped toe and a similar tread?

RIP Akyra!  Ran quite a few Cirque Series races in those, as well as 4th class scrambling in the Tetons.  They were great!

Has anyone tried the Arcteryx Vertex?

https://www.arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/vertex-shoe

LS Akyra are great but they aren't dead. Some online shops still sell them as well as the official La Sportiva store:

https://www.lasportiva.com/en/akyra-man-black-36d999999

I have done 5th class scrambling with them on.

Used my ultra raptors in patagonia as my approach shoe. My partner had akyras. We climbed up to 5.8 a lot and lots of endless slabs no prob. Just depends what fits your feet best imo.