Trad Anchors for Top Rope

Good evening all. I've had close to a year of outdoor climbing experience with sport and top rope climbing. I'm out in Milwaukee Wisconsin, and a really popular climbing area near me is called Devils Lake, however, they only have trad climbing and bouldering. I bought some webbing, hoping to set up some top ropes by anchoring to trees or boulders in the area, and am now looking for any advice on how to set up trad anchors with webbing, and which knots to use to set up the anchors. 

I appreciate any and all advice you can give me, especially having to do with knot tying, so bring on the comments.

This is my favorite diagram for how to set a top rope without trad gear. Particularly at devils lake, where edges can be rather sharp, I’d recommend some static rope or cord in place of webbing.

It also really helps to at least have at least some trad gear. There are climbs where natural features can be sling/wrapped, but having some nuts and a couple cams will really give you some flexibility and allow for more precise anchors.  

First up, I will totally support you self-teaching, frankly that's how I did it, and some of the best climbers I know.

A bit old school, but I have gotten a lot out of John Long's Climbing Anchors book over the years. It has a long section on top-rope anchors with many photos and explained examples, as well as tips even for things like assessing tree strength. It also covers knots as well I think.

A more modern resource might be HowNot2 videos on YouTube.

Personally I prefer using rope for top rope anchors, a 10 or 20m length of static 10mm rope is great. Webbing works fine of course.

I think sharp edges are a particularly dangerous hazard for top rope setups - always be thinking about how your rope or webbing will be rubbing on the rock. Don't be stingy with bringing old carpet to pad the lip, sliced garden hose, empty packs stuffed under the anchor, etc

If possible, stay up the top and observe how the anchor shifts and looks under load, while a couple of people at the base apply full load on the ground.

Finally, in my country, it's a common saying that no-one has ever died sport climbing, but plenty of climbers, including extremely experienced ones, have died slipping while scrambling unroped around the tops of cliffs.

Andy Eiter wrote:

This is my favorite diagram for how to set a top rope without trad gear. Particularly at devils lake, where edges can be rather sharp, I’d recommend some static rope or cord in place of webbing.

It also really helps to at least have at least some trad gear. There are climbs where natural features can be sling/wrapped, but having some nuts and a couple cams will really give you some flexibility and allow for more precise anchors.  

This is great.

IMO though, I'll disagree on the double bowline...I think the double bowline (formed with the working end passed through two small loops instead of one) is a death knot that is extremely easy to mistie and is particularly prone to working loose.

A single bowline is perfectly strong enough, harder to mistie, and seems to cinch tighter -  although you should stilll ALWAYS use some kind of extra finish as it will still work loose over time. Adam Ondra style with a stopper knot tied on the bight is great.

Edit: fck I've probably summoned the crazy bowline guy to derail the thread...sorry.

Webbing is a great way to protect trees! If top roping off of trees it is good practice to wrap webbing at least three times around the tree if possible as this greatly reduces the potential of harming the tree. So even if you use a section of static rope to build the anchor going to the master point that webbing will come in very useful. Personally I like webbing for going over sharp corners of cliff edges as I find it takes less damage than rope, but static rope is a good choice also. 

I like to use webbing with a figure 8 on a bight on either end (an extremely simple knot, you'll learn it in under a minute if you don't know it) like so:

You can wrap this around a tree and then clip a biner to the eyes of each knot you've created, then attach the static rope for your anchor to that. This is a realm of infinite possibility but this is an easy solution that I use frequently. More webbing or static rope can then run to your master point. 

(Threads are better with a few pics, yeah?)

My advice is to not become a post on one of these threads

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116725314/the-devils-lake-top-rope-cluster-fuk-thread-2nd-edition

Some entertaining reads.    

Real advice, I’d be very conservative if self learning, I much prefer group outings or a mentor if anchors will involve any gear placements.     Have fun.  

If you have gone an bought webbing you should not be doing this on your own.

One particular challenge at Devils Lake is that there is a path along the tops of some of the cliffs, and your anchor material is not allowed to cross the path. So you may need to do some research / walking around to find climbs with sufficient natural anchors that are on the cliff side of the path, or bluffs without a path along the top. It’s been literally decades but I recall a cliff band that was a hike in from the top (as opposed to the one you approach from the CCC talus trail) that had far less hiker traffic to deal with. On the main bluffs atop the CCC trail, we usually placed gear in cracks for top roping (which I would recommend against for you without some serious training or apprenticeship).

And as others have said, the quartzite at Devils Lake tends to form sharp jagged edges. If you use webbing you will need to place thick padding under it (like a carpet sample or empty backpack) where it crosses an edge under load, and secure the padding so it won’t move. Heck I would do that for rope anchors too.

If you haven’t, I would Google for climbing clubs in the area. It can be a good and relatively cheap way to get out with experienced folks and learn from mentors.

Take the anchor lessons with Devils Lake Climbing Guides.  Get a group of friends and schedule a private lesson or enroll in one of their open days.  You don't know what you don't know right now.  Or find a person you can go out with and show you.  To much can can go wrong and while you are learning it is best to have a second person inspect your anchor.  A lot of the climbs at Devils Lake can top roped just using static line around trees and boulders.  You don't need trad gear right away.  I see a lot of bad anchors out there.

I'll second the advice everyone else has given so far. You can learn how to set up TR anchors from books, videos, classes, or people. Devil's Lake is very forgiving in terms of anchor material you'll need. You can set most routes with some static line, webbing, and a handful of locking carabiners. I'd definitely suggest having a trusted guide or friend help you in building these anchors for your first couple times out until you feel confident in your knowledge and skills.

Using webbing in 2023 is pretty fucking old school.

I would suggest about 40 meters of 9mm static line and do some research into a BHK and “bunny ears” figure 8.

Make sure to back up that bowline with a Yosemite finish.

And yeah watch those How Not 2 vids.

Wictor Dahlström wrote:

Using webbing in 2023 is pretty fucking old school.

Actually its practically new school since 100' of it takes up no space in the pack and weighs nothing compared to a fat static line

And yeah watch those How Not 2 vids.

Those guys are kinda noobish when it comes to rock climbing (and actual science). I don't think they'd argue otherwise either. Get one of the books (Long, Gaines, etc)

Excellent question that I'm sure a lot of other people are interested in as well.

Webbing can certainly make some effective anchors, but it has some downsides compared to rope. About the one positive the webbing is that it's inexpensive.

Rope is better: 

• Overall, using a rigging rope is faster to set up, easier to inspect and adjust, and has fewer individual components.
• Static materials are good to use here. With a standard dynamic climbing rope, as the rope is weighted and unweighted. it stretches and unstretches under load over the cliff edge, which could potentially damage it.
• Static ropes usually have a very durable sheath. Webbing has no sheath.
• Kernmantle (German: “kern”= core, “mantel” = sheath) rope is generally quite abrasion resistant, while tubular webbing is definitely not. When loaded over an edge with a sideways sort of pull, rope will tend to roll, whereas webbing tends to slide. Sliding is going to lead to more potential abrasion.
• Static rope works with a Grigri, which is a great tool to reduce your risk when you're working around a cliff edge. Can't use a Grigri with webbing. With a Grigri, always have a stopper knot or hard backup bight knot below the device, as a Grigri can creep downward under a light load.
• You can tie many more knots (and use friction hitches) in rope than you can in webbing. With webbing, you're pretty much restricted to a water knot or an overhand on a bight.

This info is taken from the following article on my website. Please have a look to learn more about rigging rope.

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/use-a-rigging-rope-for-top-rope-anchors