JTree Camping: Hidden Valley, Belle, White Tank

slim wrote:

as much as i want to pummel the genius that came up with this idea, i imagine it is the result of a colossal amount of dipshit behavior...

Understatement.

If they created an account here they're probably competent enough to create a paypal account. Physically drive to the entrance? What is this? 1983?

Better yet, they should hire Booze Allen Hamilton to create a dead-slow registration site where you can both pay the parks and the military-industrial complex. BAH can charge $2 per registration in perpetuity for blessing us with their hyper-optimized web design like they do with Red Rock!

Would it be a better solution to the problem  having all the campgrounds be reservation only, then you wouldn't have to drive back out to the entrance to pay?  That's how it is in yos.

Making everyone use a bus like in Zion could cut down on congestion on the roads and crags also.

You used to be able to camp for free at the trailhead for Black Velvet Wall, Oak Creek, etc in RR, now all there is one reservation campground.

Law enforcement rangers protect the park's resources from silly people and help deal with millions of park visitors a year.  Very high percentage of visitors that are both climbers and non-climbers haven't spent years in JT and the mojave desert and do things that are more typical of city environment,  Law enforcement rangers don't have time to count money and verify non-reservation only campgrounds.  park fees staff do those tasks.   Climbing is a priveledged activity in any national park,  Camping in the park is also highly valued by many people, climbers including myself once or twice have taken advantage of the campground fee system for many decades, now since the pandemic and instagram, park visitation has skyrocketed, not just climbers use the park and want to camp in an awesome desert paradise.  Theft of the iron rangers (fee boxs) was persistent.  

Climbers and slack-liners should step up and be sterwards for the park and it's climbing in my opinion.  My 2 cents on the topic.

Joshua Tree Ranger Zach Olson wrote:

Violating any of the above regulations could result in issuance of a federal violation notice and carry a maximum $5,000 fine and 6 months in prison. 

I'd like to suggest simply arresting everyone who enters the park. It would solve all the resource problems and also open up a good source of prison guard jobs for the underserved local communities. 

john durr wrote:

Would it be a better solution to the problem  having all the campgrounds be reservation only, then you wouldn't have to drive back out to the entrance to pay?  That's how it is in yos.

Yeah, I think reservation only with a system to fill in no-shows would be preferable.  I hate paying Boos Allen two bucks a pop, but hundreds of parties competing for dozens of first come first served sites is a mess. 

Sorry, but I'm curious. How are the rangers accepting payment at the CG if they're not taking cash?

Dave Meyer wrote:

Sorry, but I'm curious. How are the rangers accepting payment at the CG if they're not taking cash?

Rangers come around with tablets and take credit cards in the mornings when they get to it. 

To OP:

10/10

1. Proceed as soon as possible to an entrance station to complete registration and pay. 

So. Wait around until rangers circle around the campground or go back to the entrance station AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!????

Dave Meyer wrote: Joshua Tree Ranger Zach Olson wrote:

1. Proceed as soon as possible to an entrance station to complete registration and pay. 

So. Wait around until rangers circle around the campground or go back to the entrance station AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!????

Possible is a word that does a lot of work.

Who ever came up with this is brain dead. Now this is a topic, We should all start talking about the hostility of the rangers, profiling of specific climbers, the lack of respect to climbers. This Hidden Valley Campground needs to be a historic camp ground like Camp 4 in Yosemite. The history is important, and it’s changing drastically. 

Hidden Valley Campground needs to remain first-come first-serve in my opinion, and not transition to a reservation-only system. Most of the other campgrounds in JTNP are reservable, and keeping the current system for HVC is crucial to maintaining the unique climbing community that is present there.

The payment system needs to be flushed out. The fact that you are expected to drive back out to the entrance station ASAP to pay for your claimed site is extreme and ridiculous, especially when you factor in waiting in line again to enter the park (which you probably already did once) and how long that line can get on the weekends.

My opinion: If there are paid employees coming around the campground every morning to collect payment anyway, why not put them on a more strict schedule so we know when to expect them? The current system, where they show up sometime between 7:30am and 11am, is difficult and annoying to plan your day around, especially when you only have 14 days per season to camp in the park. Maybe another lap closer to dinner time would be helpful as well, especially when the weather conditions favor climbing early in the morning. Either way, that should be the primary way to pay for a site unless a greater change is made to the system, like adding a friendly camp host.

I believe the climbing and slacklining communities have been trying to be stewards of the park in many ways, but it has become increasingly obvious that some of the law enforcement officers have started to profile and become biased towards climbers, especially dirtbags and/or those who drive and live in a van. Citations have been issued to certain individuals when only warnings were given to non-dirtbags in similar situations. This is completely messed up, and feels like they are trying to squash the community for some reason, which may be (and likely is) personal. I truely believe that it is possible to peacefully coexist with the law enforcement, but recent incidents have not been productive at all in that way.

There is a long and rich history of rock climbing in Joshua Tree, and it would be a shame if the continuation of that were to diminish just because of some bogus like this. 

Jonah Phillips wrote:

...We should all start talking about the hostility of the rangers...

What hostility are you talking about? 

D Bag wrote:

Solution to maintain first-come first-served in HVCG:  replace the climbing “stewards” with a campground host who can collect payments and keep tabs on visitation like in Red Rocks.

There's a campground host at Indian Cove. Why isn't there one at HVCG?

D Bag wrote:

Sorry to break it to you, but NPS’s mission is to preserve the unique natural and cultural resources…not the unique climbing community.  Believe it or not, climbers are not the majority in JTree.  Why do climbers think their “unique” community is special?  It can be said that climbing is a  part of the culture of the park, or HVCG specifically, but that culture has evolved into an entitled user group who thinks rules don’t apply to them.  At the very least, some climbers believe this.  

The current fee system was implemented because climbers were overstaying their 14 days and not paying for campsites.  There were a few thefts at the iron rangers, but the main reason is because some entitled climbers think their “culture” is unique and the rules don’t apply to them.  If you look at it through the park’s eyes, climbers are a threat to the park and their mission thanks to a few.

The above allegations of harassment and profiling climbers is bullshit.  Entitled climbers always pitch a fit when they get busted breaking rules.

Solution to maintain first-come first-served in HVCG:  replace the climbing “stewards” with a campground host who can collect payments and keep tabs on visitation like in Red Rocks.

Alright Rob we get it no more f*ckery or you’re bustin chops

D Bag wrote:

Sorry to break it to you, but NPS’s mission is to preserve the unique natural and cultural resources…not the unique climbing community.  Believe it or not, climbers are not the majority in JTree.  Why do climbers think their “unique” community is special?  It can be said that climbing is a  part of the culture of the park, or HVCG specifically, but that culture has evolved into an entitled user group who thinks rules don’t apply to them.  At the very least, some climbers believe this.  

Of course I understand that the NPS has bigger priorities and objectives. But yes, I think climbing is an important part of the culture of HVC specifically, and it's quite possible to protect it.

I feel that the community of climbers that gathers in Joshua Tree during the winter is definitely unique, as it's one of the few and great places to trad climb during the cold months, and therefore attracts an amazing collection of humans. I've learned a lot in my time spent in and around the park, and want more people to have that experience without having to deal with unnecessary bullshit.

Thank you for specifying that not all climbers are "entitled," although that word appears a few more times, which makes me wonder...

The current fee system was implemented because climbers were overstaying their 14 days and not paying for campsites.  There were a few thefts at the iron rangers, but the main reason is because some entitled climbers think their “culture” is unique and the rules don’t apply to them.  If you look at it through the park’s eyes, climbers are a threat to the park and their mission thanks to a few.

While that may be true, I think it also has a lot to do with the subpar nature of the fee system, as stated by others. I'm confident that plently of non-climbers got away with a couple nights of free camping just because of the lack of schedule for fee collection. And I do understand that currently those rangers have other duties to fulfill, which make a strict schedule difficult.

I agree that being a threat to the NPS is something to be avoided, and yes, it only takes a few to mess it up. This is something that we as a climbing community need to try to fix and maintain, although it's hard to tell if certain employees will ever like us.

The above allegations of harassment and profiling climbers is bullshit.  Entitled climbers always pitch a fit when they get busted breaking rules.

How can you say with such absolute certainty that it's bullshit?

Solution to maintain first-come first-served in HVCG:  replace the climbing “stewards” with a campground host who can collect payments and keep tabs on visitation like in Red Rocks.

Damn dude, it seems like your quotations infer that the climbing stewards actually don't care about the unique natural and cultural resources in JTNP. Do you have any specific instances or examples that come to mind regarding this claim? Or did I misinterpret that?

Also, is there really a need to replace them rather than simply add a host?

D Bag wrote:

Sorry to break it to you, but NPS’s mission is to preserve the unique natural and cultural resources…not the unique climbing community.  Believe it or not, climbers are not the majority in JTree.  Why do climbers think their “unique” community is special?  It can be said that climbing is a  part of the culture of the park, or HVCG specifically, but that culture has evolved into an entitled user group who thinks rules don’t apply to them.  At the very least, some climbers believe this.  

The current fee system was implemented because climbers were overstaying their 14 days and not paying for campsites.  There were a few thefts at the iron rangers, but the main reason is because some entitled climbers think their “culture” is unique and the rules don’t apply to them.  If you look at it through the park’s eyes, climbers are a threat to the park and their mission thanks to a few.

The above allegations of harassment and profiling climbers is bullshit.  Entitled climbers always pitch a fit when they get busted breaking rules.

Solution to maintain first-come first-served in HVCG:  replace the climbing “stewards” with a campground host who can collect payments and keep tabs on visitation like in Red Rocks.

Funny how this account was made February 28, 2023. It’s easy for you to say:

 “If you look at it through the park’s eyes, climbers are a threat to the park and their mission thanks to a few.” 

When you work for the park(Probably ranger) 

Also: 

“The above allegations of harassment and profiling climbers is bullshit”

Who are you to say with such extreme certainty?  Why are you being so defensive. You’re the only one saying these things. And you’re wrong. We have a beautiful community here in HVCG, why do you want to ruin it?

talking shit on the stewards too… wow… 

If you are a ranger (which we know all of you) you act fake nice to all the stewards like you appreciate them(as you should, the help and knowledge they give and do for the community is great.) 

Do you want injuries? Accidents? Un cared for land?

If there was a climbing or hiking accident The Park and Park Rangers wouldn’t have a sliver of the capabilities and knowledge the Stewards have.

Don Frijoles wrote:

What site is the Indian Cove campground host?

Good question. I don't think they live in the campground, so maybe I used the incorrect term. But there's a non-NPS employee who comes in to Indian Cove every weekend morning (and probably others). She checks on Saturday morning that all the two-day reservations from the night before (Friday) have been occupied as of 10 AM Saturday and, if not, she distributes them to anyone needing a Saturday night site and collects the fees. Honestly a great service in that campground, since it's largely reserved but lots of no-shows. 

Don Frijoles wrote:

How are the unoccupied sites distributed? Is there a waitlist?

People line up at 10 AM at a site near Pixie Rock. I've forgotten the number. She then gives the excess sites out 1st come. I've never seen people not get something. Because, as you note, there's often a HUGE percentage of no-shows for reserved sites. Which is a big inefficiency in the system.