Replacing pins in the valley?

climbs sometimes wrote:

are we talking about the 11 roof pitch two? iv seen a pin there and a pin missing so it goes with out but on spooky small wires. usually there like 3-4 or those fixed little rusted wires in that nest 

edit: Kevin there is a guy who’s replaced some pins in the valley and gotten grief for it, among other activity that involves a hammer. 

Yes, the 5.11 roof. Without the pin, you can get offsets, totems, and wires in this pitch. I placed a bad cam and fell and ripped it, taking a perfectly safe fall down the blank wall below. I climbed back up, placed a better piece, and finished the pitch. I got to experience a fun/exciting fall and learned something. Without a pin, future climbers will get the same experience that I did. Decades ago hammering a pin into the roof might have been the best pro, but with modern gear I don't think it's necessary. In this case, a pin/bolt wouldn't make this pitch safer, just more convenient. I don't think drilling or nailing for convenience is acceptable to most modern valley climbers' ethics, which is why that guy has gotten grief.

Why are “has beens” dictating valley ethics?  If these old guys can go do the work themselves - I say go for it and put in another pin or bolt. But the reality is half the guys on here are sitting in a retirement home dreaming of the good ole days.  

So legit… why again do you get a say again??

Patrick M wrote:

Why are “has beens” dictating valley ethics?  If these old guys can go do the work themselves - I say go for it and put in another pin or bolt. But the reality is half the guys on here are sitting in a retirement home dreaming of the good ole days.  

So legit… why again do you get a say again??

Because they own the rock, duh. Purchased it with their massive sacks on hard man runouts back in “The Day”. As Kev said “get off my lawn”, you know because he owns Yosemite, especially Middle Cathedral with his massive piton.

John Clark wrote:

Because they own the rock, duh. Purchased it with their massive sacks on hard man runouts back in “The Day”. As Kev said “get off my lawn”, you know because he owns Yosemite, especially Middle Cathedral with his massive piton.

Always found the old man gripes about entitlement ironic given some want to own the rocks that they hardly ever (if at all) climb anymore. 

Maybe you pups are new to climbing.

Adding bolts to existing free climbs, especially in Yosemite, has been frowned upon for decades. Unless the first ascensionist approves, and even then it’s controversial. This thread is about replacing fixed pins with bolts in Yosemite. In the case of my routes on MCR, I don’t approve. Simple. Challenge that on the rock, instead of embarrassing yourself online, eh?

It’s unfortunate that the tradition apparently threatens some climbers’ masculinity. I suspect that such climbers wouldn’t have the skills to climb a lot of these routes anyway, even if all the fixed pins were replaced, by someone else of course, with bolts.

Kevin Worrall wrote:

Maybe you pups are new to climbing.

Adding bolts to existing free climbs, especially in Yosemite, has been frowned upon for decades. Unless the first ascensionist approves, and even then it’s controversial. This thread is about replacing fixed pins with bolts in Yosemite. In the case of my routes on MCR, I don’t approve. Simple. Challenge that on the rock, instead of embarrassing yourself online, eh?

It’s unfortunate that the tradition apparently threatens some climbers’ masculinity. I suspect that such climbers wouldn’t have the skills to climb a lot of these routes anyway, even if all the fixed pins were replaced, by someone else of course, with bolts.

I think it’s jello and bingo time at the community center bud

Edit: And to clarify, I don’t think this comes down to a masculinity, to me, it boils down to ego.  You don’t care about the damage to rock.  You care about the style of your route.  What if that pin placement is now a perfect wire placement?  Do you know? Naa your aren’t climbing in the valley anymore. I just want FAist to be humble and realistic (and respectful) to what is needed to properly equip a route. And if they don’t know, to find someone who can give them first hand knowledge  

I have a lot of respect for how Brad Young equips his routes on 108 and his mindset.  Shit he’s still developing crags out here, so if he prefers a pin over a bolt - I think he’s capable of that decision as he knows how the rock changes year to year as well as placements. Adventure yet not allowing ego to dictate safety. I just highly doubt you know the current conditions of routes  - that’s all.

Not sure I’d question how often Kevin gets out on rock. It’s probably much more often than most of us. However, there may be merit to asking how often and recently he has hopped on his prided MCR routes to check on his fixed protection and how often he carries pitons and hammer on his harness these days while enjoying a day out on long established free climbs.

 I just highly doubt you know the current conditions of routes  - that’s all.

I highly doubt you know anything, at all, about the routes on MCR we’re talking about. 

Give us an example of a pin on a Valley climb that needs to be replaced with a bolt in your opinion. We’ve already eliminated the roof on Freeblast and the Rostrum pitons mentioned in the OP. You’re right, I don’t know the current conditions of routes in Yosemite. You’re implying that you do. So let’s hear which routes you think need bolts where pins were used on the FA.

However, there may be merit to asking how often and recently he has hopped on his prided MCR routes to check on his fixed protection and how often he carries pitons and hammer on his harness these days while enjoying a day out on long established free climbs.

I generally don’t repeat routes, generally only develop new areas, generally sport climb. I haven’t climbed at all for 2 years now. None of that is relevant to this discussion, tho. If I was doing a new route ground up, I would carry a hammer and pins on the lead. I haven’t done a long established free climb in years, also irrelevant. If I did tho, and I thought it would be wise to bring a hammer and pins, I would. 

I told you guys there are very few fixed pins per pitch on those MCR routes. Has anyone here done Space Babble or Black Primo or Mother Earth? Didn’t think so. We can’t have a conversation about specific fixed pins without having the shared experience. Every placement is different.

If told you, John Clark, to go ahead and replace the fixed pins on Space Babble, with bolts, if they couldn’t be replaced with modern gear, would you actually step up to the plate and do it? On lead, of course. There were maybe 4 protection pins on 7 pitches. There are probably still zealots that would chop them. I wouldn’t approve, but I wouldn’t chop them myself.

The first protection bolt on the Salathe (start of the slabs, at the end of the groove and after the small roof) is a replacement for a pin. Your comments seem to be gone from from SuperTopo (did you have them deleted?), so I can't check your story of freeing it, but I'm guessing it wasn't there. Should that bolt have never been placed? Should it be removed now?

(The nazi post limit)

I don’t care either way on Freeblast. If you’re interested in the story of how Mike Graham and I did the first free ascent to Mammoth, it’s in the comments on the Freeblast page on Mountain Project. Btw, when Bridwell, Long, Kauk and Bachar freed the roof on the third pitch, I heard Jim manufactured a foot hold, we called those “Thank Bridwell Holds”, and knowing him and the era, I wouldn’t be surprised if the crack was somehow a little wider after they passed through, also.

Mike and I traversed across the slab from the Nose, and joined the Salathe just above the roof.

Kevin Worrall wrote:

I highly doubt you know anything, at all, about the routes on MCR we’re talking about. 

Give us an example of a pin on a Valley climb that needs to be replaced with a bolt in your opinion. We’ve already eliminated the roof on Freeblast and the Rostrum pitons mentioned in the OP. You’re right I don’t know the current conditions of routes in Yosemite. You’re implying that you do. So let’s hear which routes you think need bolts where pins were used on the FA.

May be blasphemous, but the 5.9++ variation to P2 on Higher Cathedral Spire would benefit from the removal of the garbage can full of pins on it. However, those scars would probably take good pro, so tbd on if a bolt or two to replace handfuls of pins would be in line with keeping HCS the classic adventure that it is.

P1 belay North Face of Dog Dome pins should be yanked if they haven’t fallen out already.

Pretty much every bong I’ve seen in the last couple years should go, as they block good clean placements and rarely aid in route finding.  Many modern carabiners struggle to clip their holes as well and the holes are often sharp/broken/rusty and would be suspect things to sling. Top of mind would be ones on Phobos, The Rostrum, and NEB

replying to K (also hit post limit):

I have a little bolt kit for just that type of thing, but unless the pins are rotted away and the placement underneath is garbage, I’m not going to spend 20-45 minutes whacking out a good pin and placing a 3/8” bolt by hand in granite. I wouldn’t do it on lead whatever the case though. I’d climb it, rap, do a good job looking at it/replacing it, then move on. I am not in favor of adding bolts where the FA did not have an option for pro though. Spicy should stay spicy, but spicy should not become dangerous timebomb.

Kevin Worrall wrote:

I highly doubt you know anything, at all, about the routes on MCR we’re talking about. 

Give us an example of a pin on a Valley climb that needs to be replaced with a bolt in your opinion. We’ve already eliminated the roof on Freeblast and the Rostrum pitons mentioned in the OP. You’re right I don’t know the current conditions of routes in Yosemite. You’re implying that you do. So let’s hear which routes you think need bolts where pins were used on the FA.

 Listen man -  I think you misread my first post or perhaps I wasn’t clear enough (definitely not my forte). First, I’m not advocating pins over bolts…  or bolts over pins.  Honestly I don’t care.   Second, I didn’t state any specifics on what pin should be replaced, I was speaking in general terms not a specific climb. -  I’m certainly not  talking about MCR… And being that the nature/flavor of MCR routes are different than others routes in the valley, I get your stance of not wanting them changed.
  What I do care about is the function of preserving the nature of a route vs. preserving the rock. I don’t think just because a pin was used on the FA, and the pin falls out, that we must replace with a pin to “preserve the past”. It’s 2023 and we know better and are better educated on the subject. Why force something if it doesn’t fit the route? Maybe a pin does fit the route - then go for it OP. But why pound a pin in a seam when maybe a placement opened up? Ego - character? Is this worth more than preserving and being a steward to an area we all love?? Or maybe the more viable option is a bolt. I don’t know
  I understand valley ethics.  Im not trying belittle you or any FA you had in the valley.  Just stating that in my humble opinion, the whole ethic of measuring dongs in the valley is tiring and old, and perhaps there isn’t a simple  “eye for an eye” formula for replacing anchors.  Perhaps a bolt is a better choice than forcing the subject and driving another pin? Never said I know just challenged the idea with my comment.  That’s all

  And no I’m not going to measure dongs with you and start to throw down tick lists.  My dong is similar to a tuna can,  so you probably got me beat.  I climb for fun :)

Kevin Worrall wrote:

I highly doubt you know anything, at all, about the routes on MCR we’re talking about. 

Give us an example of a pin on a Valley climb that needs to be replaced with a bolt in your opinion. We’ve already eliminated the roof on Freeblast and the Rostrum pitons mentioned in the OP. You’re right I don’t know the current conditions of routes in Yosemite. You’re implying that you do. So let’s hear which routes you think need bolts where pins were used on the FA.

The first protection bolt on the Salathe (start of the slabs, at the end of the groove and after the small roof) is a replacement for a pin. Your comments seem to be gone from from SuperTopo (did you have them deleted?), so I can't check your story of freeing it, but I'm guessing it wasn't there. Should that bolt have never been placed? Should it be removed now?

I have a wild idea.  Modern pro is pretty damn good - in most cases the loss of one of these old timebombs opens up a fairly decent placement.  Not as bomber as a bolt, but reasonably safe.  How about we adopt the ethic that modern climbers sack up and place removable pro in that spot.  If it works, great, carry on.  If it doesn't work, or if it's sketch, sack up and improve upon the style that the route was originally climbed. 

That would save the rock from any further damage, and it preserves the climb for future generations of climbers to enjoy it in no lesser style than the first ascent.  It isn't as risk-free as adding a bunch of bolts or glue-ins or Kevin's bolt-hole idea (sorry but that just doesn't make any sense to me) but climbing is dangerous, after all.

I apologize for using the term sack up.

Jason Kim wrote:

I have a wild idea. 

It seems like a wildly unoriginal idea, I’ve seen it multiple times in this thread already.

I apologize for using the term sack up.

Just use the term or bust out a different phrase, this is just sackless.

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

the bolts off to the left after the pin scares end?

No, the single bolt maybe 1' above the end of the pin scars before you head out left.

I apologize for using the term sack up.

In the interest of reparations towards our downtrodden sisters, I prefer to say “ovary up”

Colonel Mustard wrote:

Just use the term or bust out a different phrase, this is just sackless.

I will have my cake and eat it, too.

A random fixed pin on the back side of Lower Cathedral Spire totally saved my ass one day.   Two full length ropes tied together were still about 25 feet from the ground.  Probably should have double bolt rap station there by now.  My epic was in 1990.

If a pin is no longer safe and the are can be protected by clean removable pro then obviously that is the way to go.  Bolt if there is no clean option.  

Actually, Beanbrain

Yeah I’ve been trying to decide which one of my acquaintances would be petty enough to harass me online under the guise of a pseudonym, but there are too many possibilities to narrow it down. 

Whatever

Answer my question as to which valley route desperately needs a bolt in place of a fixed pin and I’ll tell you what protection is for.

Deal?

Don Frijoles wrote:

The barn door was solid when the barn was built forty years ago. But it has warped with age and doesn't close any more. Seems reasonable to fix it before the horse runs away.

yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to get replaced with a door opener that everyone gets the code to.

The barn door was solid when the barn was built forty years ago. But it has warped with age and doesn't close any more. Seems reasonable to fix it before the horse runs away.

If you don’t have the skills to ride the horse, and it ain’t your barn anyway, why should you have a say in how to fix the door?