Petition to eliminate the Yosemite big wall permit system

I dislike getting political, but this is a battle we must fight. NPS and the climbing rangers mean well with the permit system, but there are other ways to clean up trash that don’t bring us down this dangerous path. Rec.gov is not a government run website. It is run by a private corporation (Booz Allen Hamilton). They were paid $180 million to set up rec.gov for the Department of the Interior. Now they set their own fees and set up lotteries to monetize portions of our National Parks. Their fees DO NOT go to the parks. They are profits for their corporation.

For example, if you want to spend the night in Yosemite’s Camp 4, you enter a lottery which costs $10.00 (non-refundable). You have about a 10% chance of winning. For every winner, there are nine losers who also give $10.00 to rec.gov.

IF you win, you also pay the park service $10.00 for the night you spend there.

So, for the single night you spend in Camp 4, the park service makes $10.00 to pay for rangers and services. Rec.gov (Booz Allen Hamilton) makes $100.00!!!!! 

If NPS is successful with their misguided Big Wall Permit system, you can bet Booz Allen Hamilton will approach NPS to let them know rec.gov

will happily run the permit system for them. 

Our tribe must unite and let our voices be heard. The park rangers are awesome people who work tirelessly, but they are mistaken with this permit system. Climbers and NPS need to work together to keep the walls clean. Permits will end poorly for everyone (except Booz Allen Hamilton). 

Please read sign and share the petition if it speaks to your heart

https://chng.it/t5H7dqQj

Genuine question - What's a reasonable amount of money to pay company to create and maintain a website like recreation.gov?

It does seem like sometimes the fee collection process becomes a self-licking ice cream cone, but I don't really know anything about how much websites should cost

Is that really how the lottery system works? Because that's technically gambling (you pay a non-refundable fee to get a chance to earn something of value), which is a no-no. If the original fee is refunded, then that may be different... 

A lot of popular races that had that sort of lottery system where told politely to stop (I'm thinking specifically Hard Rock 100). I think Ironman had to pay a settlement in the millions.  

I tried to sign but I am not giving change.org my email address, sorry. I'll sign a physical petition if I see one in the valley, though.

Jim Hornibrook wrote:

For example, if you want to spend the night in Yosemite’s Camp 4, you enter a lottery which costs $10.00 (non-refundable). You have about a 10% chance of winning. For every winner, there are nine losers who also give $10.00 to rec.gov.

IF you win, you also pay the park service $10.00 for the night you spend there.

So, for the single night you spend in Camp 4, the park service makes $10.00 to pay for rangers and services. Rec.gov (Booz Allen Hamilton) makes $100.00!!!!! 

For credibility sake, it's probably best to decouple staying in Camp 4 from the big wall permit system:

From: https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbingpermits.htm

With a wilderness climbing permit, can I camp in the frontcountry the night before or after my overnight climb?

Climbers with a wilderness climbing permit may spend one night prior to, and one night after, an overnight climb in an open backpackers campground. The cost is $8 per night (per person); reservations are not required. These only provide tent camping; sleeping in a vehicle is not allowed.

I feel like the issue here is for profits making money for little to no perceived work. This seems like a larger issue than just the bigwall permits. If this is true, might be worth trying to just post this in the Yosemite campgrounds, I think your everyday Joe would be pretty pissed that most their money is going to a corporation. 

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

I tried to sign but I am not giving change.org my email address, sorry. I'll sign a physical petition if I see one in the valley, though.

Gotta love the boomers who think their bank account will get hacked by giving out their email address. Just flag it as spam once, and voila, done.

I would also message them through this link too on their website to give your feedback! https://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?documentID=121898

They have some town hall meetings I believe too. This permit system could be way better designed and is especially difficult for weekend warriors or people with limited time. 

I don't have specific input on Yos area issues from rec.gov... It is here for Red Rock though, and it is a major pain point... though it sounds like you guys have it much much worse.

I bid on government contracts for a living. If the .gov put out a bid for a single hammer, my bid would be at minimum $3,000 or I'd lose money on selling them a hammer. The amount of engineering manpower and paperwork involved in doing ANYTHING for the government would absolutely blow your mind. 

Anonymous Coward wrote:

Gotta love the boomers who think their bank account will get hacked by giving out their email address. Just flag it as spam once, and voila, done.

Or ya know, don't check/check the box that limits what they can send you when you sign up...

Wreck for sure! What a joke our outdoor reality has become. Signed it

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

I tried to sign but I am not giving change.org my email address, sorry. I'll sign a physical petition if I see one in the valley, though.

its 2022. do you really not know how to make a fake email address?

I’d take this a step further…petition to eliminate rec.gov entirely. 

Signed. I am strongly against the big wall permit system.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

I tried to sign but I am not giving change.org my email address, sorry. I'll sign a physical petition if I see one in the valley, though.

I have 4 email addresses. My “real one” and others for various purposes. Messages to me thru Mountain Project go to the “junk” one, as does “go fund me”, any charitable donation, and the petition websites. 

What would happen if you “forgot” and just started up the wall? 

ZT G wrote:

What would happen if you “forgot” and just started up the wall? 

What happens if you “forget” any regulation in a national park and get caught doing the regulated thing?

Marc801 C wrote:

For credibility sake, it's probably best to decouple staying in Camp 4 from the big wall permit system:

From: https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbingpermits.htm

He’s not saying they’re coupled together, he’s making a point about how reservation system could go once the bigwall permit system goes to rec.gov (which nps has said will happen in their last town hall) 

Obviously the backcountry permit lottery system is a better comparison but less likely to resonant with the experiences of bigwallers 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

What happens if you “forget” any regulation in a national park and get caught doing the regulated thing?

More free fire starter, eh? 

If they cap the number of overnight wall permits I would expect the unintended consequence to be many parties who would normally have gone for a 3 day ascent attempting to do routes in a day and inevitably creating a massive cluster or winding up with an 'unplanned' bivy.

its 2022. do you really not know how to make a fake email address?

I found my way to contribute, so all good over here comrade. Thanks.