The latest, greatest 2:1 hauling kit

Fail Falling wrote:

Climbing Technology CRIC

This will be an interesting point of gear for the lower pulley and grab in the zed cord. 

The ability to flip it also makes it applicable for 1:1.  Haven't seen data on the sheave size, but it looks larger than a RollnLock based on the pictures with the carabiner.  Can assume 90% efficiency.  Looking forward to the data sheet release.

Fail Falling wrote:

Climbing Technology CRIC

This will be an interesting point of gear for the lower pulley and grab in the zed cord. 

That thing looks awesome for far-end hauling (if the bag is attached to the haul line with a microtrax) to do 2:1.

It would also be nice for sport climbing style rope ascension with a gri gri on the harness

Fail Falling wrote:

Climbing Technology CRIC

This will be an interesting point of gear for the lower pulley and grab in the zed cord. 

Climbing Technology is coming out with some cool gear lately.  They also have a new adjustable daisy/PAS that uses rope rather than webbing (looks *really* cool on paper).

Would like to see some demos of this progress capture device. 

Quinn Hatfield wrote:

How exactly are you backing it up?

and what would happen if the MicroTrax did catastrophically fail?

In Kevin’s post- he suggests  backing it up (with a QuickDraw?) while you have someone counterweight’ing the free end.. which makes sense as you’ve got weight on either end of the rope in that scenario - and double the load

but in a normal 2:1 hauling system the rope is free on the other end of the Haul Line.. 

The same way Kevin suggests, using a quickdraw.  Counterweight hauling is definitely the best example of a reason why you’d want to back it up.  I’d just assume always be in the habit of adding that quick extra step, just in case (say your partner gets to the belay and starts helping you haul by hanging on the free end of the haul line…back up is already in place).  Also this extra step of backing up the main pulley/progress capture device became part of my haul set up protocol during the time that the hauling device of choice was the Petzl Wall Hauler.  I don’t think anyone would have recommended using one of those for the things a Micro Trax regularly is like top rope soloing, simul climbing, and belaying from above.  It certainly wasn’t as robust as a Pro Trax or Micro Trax.  

Peter Zabrok wrote:

I use a Micro-Trax only for hauling my gear pig, and upside-down on top of my main loads as a Far End Hauler so I don't have to faff around with a plastic bottle "knot protector".  No knot = no knot protector required.  I would never 1:1 haul a Grade VI load with a Micro-Trax; the pulley is too small.  

For a 2:1, it doesn't much matter what you use to hold the weight of the pigs, because you're lifting with the other part of the system. Still, it is concerning to me to see a device only rated 2.5 kN a side with the cam engaged. That surprised me...

For my money, the Kong Block-Roll is far and away the best hauling device. It is a PERFECT fit to put a 2:1 over top of, and once you have drunk down the weight of all your beer, and you want to switch to 1:1, it's a great device for that too because of its big ass 3" pulley.

Would you use a 2.5 kN carabiner in your system? Would you rappel from it? Would you clip it to a bolt? These are things to think about...

A Micro-Trax would be my haul device of choice on a Grade V wall with light loads, or to haul my gear pig. But not a full-size Grade VI or big wall camping load - it just ain't burly enough. You guys know how hard it is to wrestle a heavy ass load up a difficult slab or what have you. Do you really want a Micro-Trax for that application?  Don't you want something burlier.  I like burly.  

The Micro Traxion has a 4kN MBS as a rope grab, and the Kong Block-Roll has a 5kN MBS in the same mode.  Not really a large difference.  

Brian R wrote:

The same way Kevin suggests, using a quickdraw.  Counterweight hauling is definitely the best example of a reason why you’d want to back it up.  I’d just assume always be in the habit of adding that quick extra step, just in case (say your partner gets to the belay and starts helping you haul by hanging on the free end of the haul line…back up is already in place).  Also this extra step of backing up the main pulley/progress capture device became part of my haul set up protocol during the time that the hauling device of choice was the Petzl Wall Hauler.  I don’t think anyone would have recommended using one of those for the things a Micro Trax regularly is like top rope soloing, simul climbing, and belaying from above.  It certainly wasn’t as robust as a Pro Trax or Micro Trax.  

I completely agree!  
anyone who would set up a haul and not back up their partner who might end up ‘space hauling’ is crazy. I’ve climbed as a party of three and jugged a weighted haul line without any fear because I know it was backed up to the anchor.
There have been several times my partner has cleaned the pitch, arrived at the anchor before o finished the haul, (something I always tried to avoid). But, the second would sometimes clip their jugs onto the deadend of the haul line and counter weight the haul to help space haul. I’ve even been my own counterweight when pre hauling to heart. Jug up, set up a progress capture device, grigri into the rope and then run back down the pitch to zip the bags up to the anchor, once the bags hit the anchor, throw on my jugs and pump back up to the high point.   

Brian R wrote:

The same way Kevin suggests, using a quickdraw.  Counterweight hauling is definitely the best example of a reason why you’d want to back it up.  I’d just assume always be in the habit of adding that quick extra step, just in case (say your partner gets to the belay and starts helping you haul by hanging on the free end of the haul line…back up is already in place).  Also this extra step of backing up the main pulley/progress capture device became part of my haul set up protocol during the time that the hauling device of choice was the Petzl Wall Hauler.  I don’t think anyone would have recommended using one of those for the things a Micro Trax regularly is like top rope soloing, simul climbing, and belaying from above.  It certainly wasn’t as robust as a Pro Trax or Micro Trax.  

Right-  Now we’re all saying the same thing- but your original comment about backing up the pulley in a 2:1 system didn’t mention anything about “while a 2nd is counterweight’ing”  - I added that.. as it’s the only scenario where I can imagine a quick and easy back-up for a 2:1

My point was unless you add an additional Progress Capture device - you aren’t backing anything up by adding a QuickDraw to a normal 2:1 system, and in my experience, we rarely counterweight because we are using a 2:1 and it’s not necessary.. (exceptions: day 1, and 3 man teams which have more weight and a person with nothing to do but jug and counterweight)

  *also anyone counterweight’ing a bag should be tied in short via whatever line they were originally Jugging… just sayin 

Back in the WallHauler days we generally backed it up with a QuickDraw but if it had failed it wouldn’t be pretty- as the only thing blocking the weight would be the Jumar you were connected to the free end with..  and then you.. have fun unweighting that mess ;) 

Quinn Hatfield wrote:

My point was unless you add an additional Progress Capture device - you aren’t backing anything up by adding a QuickDraw to a normal 2:1 system

I have also thought about this. It’s not something that spooks me too much. I certainly don’t haul with a backup all the time, but I do wonder how to effectively and efficiently backup the normal 2:1 system. If I knew I might back up all the time. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

I have also thought about this. It’s not something that spooks me too much. I certainly don’t haul with a backup all the time, but I do wonder how to effectively and efficiently backup the normal 2:1 system. If I knew I might back up all the time. 

I think the answer is-

The Zed backs up the Pulley, and 

The pulley backs up the Zed 

Quinn Hatfield wrote:

I think the answer is-

The Zed backs up the Pulley, and 

The pulley backs up the Zed 

Hmmm. I suppose so, but it’s an iffy backup at best. I would need to do more than just have a leg loop in the zed cord. I often just foot pump the 2:1

Quinn Hatfield wrote:

I think the answer is-

The Zed backs up the Pulley, and 

The pulley backs up the Zed 

Naw, I don’t like that answer.

If the wire dog bone or the Micro-trax were to fail the weight would fall onto the Basic and the Zed Cord.

I’m not a “if this happens then that might happen” kind of guy and if it’s just the haul bag, I don’t worry about it a bit, but I’d hate for a climber AND a haul bag to fall onto the Zed Cord.

A shoulder length sling clipped to a bolt and the haul line below the Micro-Trax will do the trick. 

Mark Hudon wrote:

Naw, I don’t like that answer.

If the wire dog bone or the Micro-trax were to fail the weight would fall onto the Basic and the Zed Cord.

I’m not a “if this happens then that might happen” kind of guy and if it’s just the haul bag, I don’t worry about it a bit, but I’d hate for a climber AND a haul bag to fall onto the Zed Cord.

A shoulder length sling clipped to a bolt and the haul line below the Micro-Trax will do the trick. 

Mark- 

Yes, we covered that above- backing up a counterweight haul makes good sense.. I always do it.. 

The question was- does the microtrax in a standard 2:1 with no climber-counterweight need to be backed up- and that’s what I was referring to.. 

Quinn Hatfield wrote:

Mark- 

Yes, we covered that above- backing up a counterweight haul makes good sense.. I always do it.. 

The question was- does the microtrax in a standard 2:1 with no climber-counterweight need to be backed up- and that’s what I was referring to.. 

No, it doesn't. 

The microtrax is never holding more than the static weight of the the bag (a bit more if the bags are stuck under something and you're trying to beast them over the obstacle - and even then it's only holding that extra tension while you're resetting the zed cord). 

In the case of the microtrax somehow failing out of the system (not going to happen) the backup draw on the haul line isn't going to stop the bags from falling before the basic catches the haul line and likely strips the sheath  (Unless you had somehow managed to tie off the slack side of the haul line immediately before the biner/microtrax broke, which it didn't, because it won't)

Quinn Hatfield wrote:

Mark- 

Yes, we covered that above- backing up a counterweight haul makes good sense.. I always do it.. 

The question was- does the microtrax in a standard 2:1 with no climber-counterweight need to be backed up- and that’s what I was referring to.. 

sorry, I haven’t been reading the posts.

Kevin,

In a space hauling situation where the dogbone or Micro broke, a quick draw the climber would counter weight the bags and a quick draw would save the day.
In a non space haul situation (I agree, it’ll never happen), back up draw or not, the bag would fall onto the Basic (and you’d shit your pants). 

Mark Hudon wrote:

sorry, I haven’t been reading the posts.

Kevin,

In a space hauling situation where the dogbone or Micro broke, a quick draw the climber would counter weight the bags and a quick draw would save the day.
In a non space haul situation (I agree, it’ll never happen), back up draw or not, the bag would fall onto the Basic (and you’d shit your pants). 

Mark, As Quinn pointed out, we're not talking about space hauling, only situations where the 2:1 is being used by itself. 

Hey! I’m old and infirm and losing my mind! Gimme a freakin’ break! Just pretend to listen to me, be nice and then carry on! 

Just a few pages ago, there was video evidence posted of a wire dogbone breaking. I’m sure it was “never gonna happen” to that too but it did.

And just a moment ago we said the micro breaking and the bag weight falling onto the petzl basic / zed cord would be bad.

Then we said it was ok??

So...anyone got better ideas for backing up a 2:1 non space haul for when my Micro Traxion decides to explode even if it’s “never gonna happen?”

Please?

No one is attacking anyone. We’re all just here to learn and bounce ideas off one another. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

So...anyone got better ideas for backing up a 2:1 non space haul for when my Micro Traxion decides to explode even if it’s “never gonna happen?”

Will a Micro Traxion tend a Prusik?

So...anyone got better ideas for backing up a 2:1 non space haul for when my Micro Traxion decides to explode even if it’s “never gonna happen?”

Please?

The Micro Traxion and the wire draw are only holding the static load (weight of the bag) on a 2:1 non space haul never more.  This is well under the rating (unless you are getting super crazy with big wall camping).  If you are concerned about a wire draw failure, then remove it from the system and use a quickdraw, static cord, dynemea sling or whatever you want instead.  Any force applied in actually pulling up the load (like when it is stuck under a roof) is through the 2:1 below the micro/wire draw.  During the actual hauling process the 2:1 haul system is actually what is holding the weight most of the time with progress capture briefly holding the weight while you reset for 2 seconds.  So the 2:1 system during hauling is backing up the micro/wire draw.  Now if you unclip yourself from the 2:1 haul in the middle of the process and start doing something else, then the 2:1 system is NOT backing up the micro/wire draw.  So the easiest way to back up the micro/wire draw would be to always keep tension on the 2:1 haul system with your bodyweight until the bags are at the anchor and docked.

There are additional ways to backup the system but they are either complex, add a lot of extra time, or potentially dangerous.  For instance you could tie the back end of the haul line off to the anchor but if everything else failed then you are going to shock load your entire anchor once the bag falls to the end of the static rope (I would never do this or recommend it).  Or you could add a 2nd device like a Petzl Shunt to the load side of the micro traxion but then you would need to tend 2 devices.  

I think we need to look at the probability of the event vs. the downsides of adding complexity to the system.  There have been isolated instances where sport climbers fell and broke quickdraws, does this mean we need to clip 2 draws to every bolt?  I personally don't think so.  There have been multiple reported cases where someone leans back and slowly loads a grigri but it doesn't actually catch them and the rope feeds through the grigri allowing them to fall.  Does this mean I don't use a single grigri to TR solo or aid solo?  For me yes because it doesn't add much complexity to the system to switch to a different device that doesn't have the same issues.

My own take is that the scenario where the wire draw or micro break is an extremely unlikely event.  And in that extremely unlikely event the 2:1 will hold the load because I am hauling with it.  Adding anything more to the system to "back it up" is going to add too much more complexity or time than I am willing to deal with.

Alex Fletcher wrote:

Just a few pages ago, there was video evidence posted of a wire dogbone breaking. I’m sure it was “never gonna happen” to that too but it did. 

Wire dogbone broke in a space hauling situation which you may have noticed on the previous page we've been saying over and over and over that we're not talking about space hauling because the consensus is that, of course one backs up the microtrax and its connection to the anchor in a space hauling situation. 

There's a massive difference between force on a device and connection that is only holding the static weight of the haul bags, versus a space haul where it is subject to the bags plus the climber plus the various other force multipliers associated with that setup.

But if want to take two completely different situations with completely different forces and completely different contexts at the expense of efficiency and effective usebe my guest.

You might be surprised to know that if you ride your brakes all the way down Priest Grade it can overheat your brakes and they'll stop working; that's why every single time I'm in my car and I have to apply the brakes, I always make sure to cycle between braking and not braking so my brakes won't fail when I'm stopping, even if it's just for a stopsign because you never know.

Alex Fletcher wrote:

And just a moment ago we said the micro breaking and the bag weight falling onto the petzl basic / zed cord would be bad.

Then we said it was ok??

The micro breaking out of the system and the bags falling onto the basic after the full extension of the static zed cord would be bad. No one said it wouldn't. 

Oh, are you thinking that because some said the zed cord backs up the micro and the micro backs up the zed cord that that means it's ok? It's ok, they left out key context that's obvious to those with experience using a 2:1.
When you're actively using the 2:1, the zed cord is attached to your belay loop or to your ladders for leg pumping. If the microtrax was to fail, the bags would fall into the zed cord.... that's already holding them up. There's minimal shock loading possible in this situation because of how the 2:1 works to bring up the hual line.
Climbers with experience know this because many many times the micro fails to catch during hauling because of something getting in the way of the teeth and it's always irritating but never a concern.  

Alex Fletcher wrote:

So...anyone got better ideas for backing up a 2:1 non space haul for when my Micro Traxion decides to explode even if it’s “never gonna happen?”

Please?

If you absolutely MUST have a back up for this situation and you don't accept that the zed cord is keeping the danger of shock loading your basic to a minimum, then you have two choices. 

1: Run a second micro after the first micro to catch the slack side of the haul line. This way, if the first micro somehow falls out of the system, the second micro will catch the haul line and prevent the pigs from falling onto the basic. This will require that you constantly manage the slack side of the haul line after the first micro so theres no slack between the two micros that would effectively shock load the rope in the second micro when it catches

2: (if you're concerned about the shock loading of the second micro) then setup a grigri on the anchor after the first micro and run the slack side of the haul line after the first micro through the grigri. In the case of a catastrophic failure, the grigri will catch the haul line and the bags.

Seems like a lot of work and lost efficiency to mitigate a danger that makes no sense to mitigate if you actually want to make any upwards progress. After all, now they were effectively afraid of dogbones or biners breaking, to be consistent you're going to need to be backing up every single instance where a single point of failure exists. Rappelling is going to be super irritating. Climbing with a single rope is out. Etc etc etc.