Dewalt Powerstuds

I was off this site for a ling time. Why is it that people are discussing mechanical anchors *other* than Hilti!?!

C Williams wrote:

I would strongly disagree with those numbers. I’ve personally seen 3/8 x 2-3/4” SD6 bolts pulled past 30 kN in shear. There is also a Bolt-Busters video to back this up. DeWalt publishes the lowest value in the minimum embed depth, in the weakest concrete. That’s why the load numbers are the same even as length and concrete strength goes up.

Good to hear, the numbers did seem really low.

Derek Woods wrote:

On the subject of wedge anchors, has anyone experience with the Simpson Wedge-All in 316? I've seen a few uncomplimentary comments in other threads in days gone by, but don't recollect the reasons.

Not in 316, but I've used them in 304.  They installed fine.  My main issue with them was thread galling.  Maybe this was from over torquing.  But I don't have much to compare to since they're the only 3/8 wedge bolts I've ever used (not ideal for my rock type).  I thought I read somewhere that wedge all threads are cut, not rolled, but I can't find it on Simpsons website.

I've used simpson strong bolts in 1/2" and it's a night and day difference, their 1/2" strong bolts are awesome.  Much more expensive though

Kyran Keisling wrote:

  I couldn't find a Sheer capacity for the Team Tough wedges in my quick search.

I don't give the construction industry values as they are meaningless in our application. However I certify them to EN959 so they must hold 25kN in shear and 15kN axial. In reality they fail (10mm) at 38kN in both directions. If you torque to the correct value you have anyway tested the bolt to around 20kN axial.

Beta Slave wrote:

I was off this site for a ling time. Why is it that people are discussing mechanical anchors *other* than Hilti!?!

perhaps its because there are plenty of excellent options that are not?!?

Jim Titt wrote:

I don't give the construction industry values as they are meaningless in our application. However I certify them to EN959 so they must hold 25kN in shear and 15kN axial. In reality they fail (10mm) at 38kN in both directions. If you torque to the correct value you have anyway tested the bolt to around 20kN axial.

Thanks Jim, that makes sense. Your bolt would be the strongest of the lot by quite a bit if I am understanding everything correctly.  

Alex, 

I am bolting in Kaibab Limestone.  The base rock in general is very solid and dense.  As a matter of fact, I had to rap off my last project because I couldn't pound in the bolt with my half-size prying/cleaning hammer.  I had forgotten my full-sized bolt hammer at home.  Every once in a while, I run into a soft section and my 3/8ths won't bite, so I pull it and use a 1/2 inch wedge and that always has tightened down solid no matter how soft the rock. 

Kyran Keisling wrote:

I am bolting in Kaibab Limestone.  The base rock in general is very solid and dense.  

Seems like there is a thousand miles of that stuff out there. If you spend a lifetime exploring it and find 10 miles of fantastic rock then you've struck gold!

But what interests me more is accessible Tapeats!

Kyran Keisling wrote:

Thanks Jim, that makes sense. Your bolt would be the strongest of the lot by quite a bit if I am understanding everything correctly.

Probably not, the way the construction industry numbers are derived are different and vary considerably to the values one obtains using EN959. Looking at the published values from say Powers says nothing. It's about time someone like the ASCA actually tested all this junk correctly so climbers aren't blundering around in the dark. Otherwise one is comparing apples to oranges.

Kyran Keisling wrote:

Thanks Jim, that makes sense. Your bolt would be the strongest of the lot by quite a bit if I am understanding everything correctly.  

Alex, 

I am bolting in Kaibab Limestone.  The base rock in general is very solid and dense.  As a matter of fact, I had to rap off my last project because I couldn't pound in the bolt with my half-size prying/cleaning hammer.  I had forgotten my full-sized bolt hammer at home.  Every once in a while, I run into a soft section and my 3/8ths won't bite, so I pull it and use a 1/2 inch wedge and that always has tightened down solid no matter how soft the rock. 

Gotcha. We’ve got some quartzite bands up in the mountains which I imagine would take the confast anchors fine. I bet granite is fine too. Maybe time to give them a chance again

Beta Slave wrote:

I was off this site for a ling time. Why is it that people are discussing mechanical anchors *other* than Hilti!?!

I really like the Hilti KB3 and the KB-TZ.  They are just very expensive at around $300 bucks for a box 50 for 304SS.  I usually watch on eBay for unopened boxes for less.  

tenesmus wrote:

Seems like there is a thousand miles of that stuff out there. If you spend a lifetime exploring it and find 10 miles of fantastic rock then you've struck gold!

But what interests me more is accessible Tapeats!

I have spent 30 years extensively looking for climbable rock in this area.  I have found about 3.5 miles of worthwhile Kaibab out hundreds of miles of cliff and even that lends itself to 2 star quality climbing for the most part.  I know there's 4 star stuff hidden out in the hinterlands near Flagstaff/Winslow but in the Page area it doesn't seem to form in the same way. 

Tapeats is way down in the ditch! Without a Grand Canyon river trip, I can't think of any possible way that "accessible" can be attached to Tapeats (unless there is some down closer to Mead that I am not thinking of?). Fantastically cool rock layer though! I have done some really fun Deep Water Soloing on that layer back in my guiding days. 

I'm too old these days to bust my back and my wife and kids say I'm not allowed to kill myself climbing,  so I am out,  but the layer that always intrigued me and one in which I wish I would have put more effort into is the Coconino Sandstone, below the east side of the Kaibab Plateau.  There are a few dirt roads that look as if they could make for a reasonable approach at a temperate 6500 feet of elevation and early afternoon shade. Too much rock, not enough life! Maybe you could do it and I could live vicariously through you!!     

Jim Titt - I agree with you on that.  It is very hard to find good information about all this stuff. I am a complete knucklehead at all of this kind of thing but at least I am willing to research and change my ways when presented with better information. As I see a lot in this forum there are quite a few that don't try to educate themselves and are putting up botch jobs with little concern for safety or longevity.   It is very easy to do it wrong and it would be great to have a source that all developers could go to to get quality information and data easily. You have taught me a lot through our interactions and through your other posts/comments and I appreciate that.  

Tapeats Sandstone Gargoyles 

Kyran Keisling wrote:

I have spent 30 years extensively looking for climbable rock in this area.  I have found about 3.5 miles of worthwhile Kaibab out hundreds of miles of cliff and even that lends itself to 2 star quality climbing for the most part.  I know there's 4 star stuff hidden out in the hinterlands near Flagstaff/Winslow but in the Page area it doesn't seem to form in the same way. 

Tapeats is way down in the ditch! Without a Grand Canyon river trip, I can't think of any possible way that "accessible" can be attached to Tapeats (unless there is some down closer to Mead that I am not thinking of?). Fantastically cool rock layer though! I have done some really fun Deep Water Soloing on that layer back in my guiding days. 

I'm too old these days to bust my back and my wife and kids say I'm not allowed to kill myself climbing,  so I am out,  but the layer that always intrigued me and one in which I wish I would have put more effort into is the Coconino Sandstone, below the east side of the Kaibab Plateau.  There are a few dirt roads that look as if they could make for a reasonable approach at a temperate 6500 feet of elevation and early afternoon shade. Too much rock, not enough life! Maybe you could do it and I could live vicariously through you!!     

Jim Titt - I agree with you on that.  It is very hard to find good information about all this stuff. I am a complete knucklehead at all of this kind of thing but at least I am willing to research and change my ways when presented with better information. As I see a lot in this forum there are quite a few that don't try to educate themselves and are putting up botch jobs with little concern for safety or longevity.   It is very easy to do it wrong and it would be great to have a source that all developers could go to to get quality information and data easily. You have taught me a lot through our interactions and through your other posts/comments and I appreciate that.  

Tapeats Sandstone Gargoyles 

Well said, Ryan! 

Continuing with the thread hijack, I'm blatantly addicted to the whole "what's around that corner" syndrome. Pretty much do it every time I drive in a canyon or walk a trail. Of all the vices to have, I'm cool with this one.
This feels like I'm talking about another planet but waaaay across the canyon from you, there is a TON of accessible Redwall along the Arizona Strip near St George and Mesquite. But you have me thinking about the Parashant Wash Monument and whether or not there is accessible Coconino. 

But the REAL gem for me is those featured, overhung limestone boulders at Toroweep. There is a fantastic campground, a solid mile of limestone blocks, half a mile of low sandstone cliffs and blocks. You just have to get out there....

The expansion clip is a very important part of a wedge bolt.

What has not been mention in this thread is how the threads are made on the bolt. The best wedge bolts have rolled threads. The wedges Bolt Product supplies have rolled threads. Hilti KBs have rolled threads.

You can be certain that cheaper bolts have machined threads. They are inherently weaker all other things considered. Are they good enough? Maybe.

I dont think it is possible for a 3/8 wedge bolt with machined threads to meet the 25kn in shear standard. 

I think modern climbers who are conscientious should have that 25 kn number in mind when bolting or re-bolting.

timothy fisher wrote:

What has not been mention in this thread is how the threads are made on the bolt. The best wedge bolts have rolled threads. The wedges Bolt Product supplies have rolled threads. Hilti KBs have rolled threads.

I did mention it!  

Tim- do you happen to know if the Simpson threads are rolled or machined?  Also, in your experience, do you think machined threads are more prone to galling?

timothy fisher wrote:

You can be certain that cheaper bolts have machined threads.

How does one know this? Is there something about the process of machining that makes it more likely to be used for cheaper bolts?

Whether a manufacturer rolls or machines the bolt may not be mentioned in their documents (so far as I have seen). 

timothy fisher wrote:

The expansion clip is a very important part of a wedge bolt.

What has not been mention in this thread is how the threads are made on the bolt. The best wedge bolts have rolled threads. The wedges Bolt Product supplies have rolled threads. Hilti KBs have rolled threads.

You can be certain that cheaper bolts have machined threads. They are inherently weaker all other things considered. Are they good enough? Maybe.

I dont think it is possible for a 3/8 wedge bolt with machined threads to meet the 25kn in shear standard. 

I think modern climbers who are conscientious should have that 25 kn number in mind when bolting or re-bolting.

A couple of honest questions, please.

How do the threads on a bolt make the sheer weaker? Wouldn't that affect the axial? I am not saying you are wrong I am just not seeing the physics in my head. 

Is there any data on this?  The reason I brought this question up in the first place is that I have always gotten the "maybe" they are good enough, and then usually something about how people who use them are not conscientious and are half-assers, but it never is accompanied by any proof or data. If I am presented with compelling evidence that what I am doing is unsafe or in poor form I would most certainly change my ways but that hasn't been the case yet.  

Shear strength is calculated through the PSI of concrete.  Is there any data on what the PSI of certain types of rock is?  I would venture to guess that the limestone I am bolting has a higher PSI than most any type of concrete. 

I would imagine that machined threaded bolts have been used extensively throughout the world.  Is there any evidence of them sheering under normal climbing use? Not in an ocean environment or in a rainforest or something. Failure because of corrosion is a totally different topic. 

tenesmus wrote:

Well said, Ryan! 

Continuing with the thread hijack, I'm blatantly addicted to the whole "what's around that corner" syndrome. Pretty much do it every time I drive in a canyon or walk a trail. Of all the vices to have, I'm cool with this one.
This feels like I'm talking about another planet but waaaay across the canyon from you, there is a TON of accessible Redwall along the Arizona Strip near St George and Mesquite. But you have me thinking about the Parashant Wash Monument and whether or not there is accessible Coconino. 

But the REAL gem for me is those featured, overhung limestone boulders at Toroweep. There is a fantastic campground, a solid mile of limestone blocks, half a mile of low sandstone cliffs and blocks. You just have to get out there....

I have heard tale of the Toroweap boulders and have always wanted to visit.  Maybe this fall when it cools down.  You should give me the tour! 

Kyran Keisling wrote:

A couple of honest questions, please.

How do the threads on a bolt make the sheer weaker? Wouldn't that affect the axial? I am not saying you are wrong I am just not seeing the physics in my head. 

Is there any data on this?  The reason I brought this question up in the first place is that I have always gotten the "maybe" they are good enough, and then usually something about how people who use them are not conscientious and are half-assers, but it never is accompanied by any proof or data. If I am presented with compelling evidence that what I am doing is unsafe or in poor form I would most certainly change my ways but that hasn't been the case yet.  

Shear strength is calculated through the PSI of concrete.  Is there any data on what the PSI of certain types of rock is?  I would venture to guess that the limestone I am bolting has a higher PSI than most any type of concrete. 

I would imagine that machined threaded bolts have been used extensively throughout the world.  Is there any evidence of them sheering under normal climbing use? Not in an ocean environment or in a rainforest or something. Failure because of corrosion is a totally different topic. 

 

You can look up "compressive strength of [insert rock type]" to get a general idea. It is generally listed in MPa and as a range. It can vary wildly for a given rock type depending on its formation and if there are air inclusions or pockets of softer rock. 

Kyran Keisling wrote:

A couple of honest questions, please.

How do the threads on a bolt make the sheer weaker? Wouldn't that affect the axial? I am not saying you are wrong I am just not seeing the physics in my head. 

Is there any data on this?  

Jim Titt mentions this here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/122351632/raumer-wedge-anchors#ForumMessage-122368250

Kyran Keisling wrote:

How do the threads on a bolt make the sheer weaker? Wouldn't that affect the axial? I am not saying you are wrong I am just not seeing the physics in my head.

It's the grain structure, cut threads are more prone to crack formation.  I'm also thinking rolled threads would be less prone to galling from over torquing

http://www.ultrasonic-resonators.org/design/threaded_fasteners/studs_bolts_threads.html