A Conversation about "Psyche"

Back in the late 1950s and early 1960s the expression, "psyched out" was more popular than "psyched", especially among the Yosemite climbers I knew. Climbers would lead up to a crux, then back off, "psyched out".

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

As a way over psyched person all the time, maybe I see this as a personal attack but I strongly disagree. The issue isn’t the psyche it is managing emotions. Imagine a situation: mid multi pitch with a committing traverse. You are psyched but struggled with the earlier significantly easier pitch. You maybe should consider backing off.

Psyched people don't know when to back off, that's what makes them "psyched". When they make it, it's glorious send but when they don't, it's sad.   

John Gill wrote:

Back in the late 1950s and early 1960s the expression, "psyched out" was more popular than "psyched", especially among the Yosemite climbers I knew. Climbers would lead up to a crux, then back off, "psyched out".

They still do, but I think the new nomenclature is I led without difficulty, but no send...

Tradi you are confusing "psych" aka "stoke" with "psyche" which is a long-established proper term of psychology, referring to the soul or mind. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

As a way over psyched person all the time, maybe I see this as a personal attack 

Of course you do   

The issue isn’t the psyche it is managing emotions.

Maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but is psyche not an emotion? 

Imagine a situation: mid multi pitch with a committing traverse. You are psyched but struggled with the earlier significantly easier pitch. You maybe should consider backing off.

Now imagine the same situation with someone who is unintersted in the traverse pitch. They give you a garbage belay, then they follow the pitch. After the pitch they tell you they wanna go home. It’s a nightmare to rap down the last pitch but they insistent they wanna go home. Now you are in another poor situation.

An overly pysched person could get both people in trouble/danger here (if it is way over their heads) more often than the lesser stoked person in your scenario. I agree about managing emotions, but I would argue that it’s more about decision making than emotions.…which are often times related.

Personally, I tend to enjoy the people who are quiet pysched. The ones who don’t externalizations their psych and can appear to be suffering through things at times but are actually so stoked they do things that aren’t even fun, or are type 2 fun. I often get annoyed by individuals who are over-stokers or obnoxiously positive. Sometimes a move or the hike or whatever just sucks and it’s ok to acknowledge that. To me, it seems fake/disingenuous to try and act like some shitty route was awesome. Now with that said, if you are some kind of psychopath that finds absolute enjoyment in absolutely everything you do, that’s awesome and good for you…stay away from me. 

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Of course you do   

Maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but is psyche not an emotion? 

An overly pysched person could get both people in trouble/danger here (if it is way over their heads) more often than the lesser stoked person in your scenario. I agree about managing emotions, but I would argue that it’s more about decision making than emotions.…which are often times related.

Personally, I tend to enjoy the people who are quiet pysched. 

I would say psyche is an emotion, but someone can be insanely psyched and still manage that emotion. 

I went up a multi pitch a long time ago, and one member of the party infront of us seemed to be crying/had cried. I had to stop them from rappelling, because they thought they could rap both the pitches at once. 

I have seen people flip out on their project. This is both  annoying and concerning. Once again it is more about managing that feeling and directing it in a good way, than just being emotionless. 

The ones who don’t externalizations their psych and can appear to be suffering through things at times but are actually so stoked they do things that aren’t even fun, or are type 2 fun. I often get annoyed by individuals who are over-stokers or obnoxiously positive. Sometimes a move or the hike or whatever just sucks and it’s ok to acknowledge that. To me, it seems fake/disingenuous to try and act like some shitty route was awesome. Now with that said, if you are some kind of psychopath that finds absolute enjoyment in absolutely everything you do, that’s awesome and good for you…stay away from me. 

I guess, but this is really more a personal preference and not necessarily a point against psyche. You don't wanna climb with these people, that is fine but that doesn't necessarily make them more dangerous or generally worse climbing partners for everyone. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I guess, but this is really more a personal preference and not necessarily a point against psyche. You don't wanna climb with these people, that is fine but that doesn't necessarily make them more dangerous or generally worse climbing partners for everyone. 

Nearly all points, for and against psych, that any makes on here are all personal preferences…

Also, I was not speaking in absolutes. I said it can make them potentially more dangerous. My point was that usually an over-stoker is far more likely to get themselves (and/or others) is worse situations than a “normally stoked“ or unstoked person is. In my experience, usually people with “too much” pysch are the ones who are newer, or less experienced. I don’t know many experienced climbers who suffer from this. It sounds like maybe your idea of “too much” pysch differs from mine, but I would say it becomes “too much” when it can present injuries, accidents, etc. 

Even in your example, if the one with too much pysch pressures the other individual into doing the traverse and it becomes dangerous at any point from there on, even on the a rappel, I would put blame on the over-stoker as they were the person in your example that wanted to continue on and therefore put both individuals in any precarious situations. 

Like you said, it kinda comes down to managing emotions, in this conversation we are discussing stoke/psych/optimism…but most people have a pretty good idea of the psych level of their partners prior to being put in a situation that could cause some sort of incident. I would also add that people freaking out over not sending or on a multi pitch are good examples of controlling emotion, but have nothing to do with being over-psyched…unless the high pysch got them into a predicament that then caused the crying, screaming, etc. 

"psyche" to me is something I need for try-hard, limit level climbing whether boulders or sport routes. Without it, I am not climbing at my limit, but can still go out and have fun doing other climbing. When I am psyched I want to project climb

Tradiban wrote:

Call it whatever you like, is there a negative element to all that "psych"? Is it a form of mania? Does it cloud risk assessment?

i think it's been widely accepted that it indeed can and does cloud judgement and risk assessment.

https://avtraining.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/human_factor_traps.pdf

The piece  about human factor traps was interesting, but I don't think those are all because of being "over psyched".   As a person with quite a lot of enthusiasm and motivation for the climbing experience I can say for certainty that being too psyched can mess with decision making. But, being too unpsyched can be negative as well. 

It sounds to me like people may be using the word "psyche" differently from others. 

Psyche is being mentally prepared to perform optimally. "Optimal" performance is a debatable thing, but I believe "psyche" is pretty closely related with the flow state; I have found that the more "psyched" I am for something the easier it is to enter the flow state. 

Personally, I love climbing with the crazy over stokers. These have always been the most memorable experiences in my climbing. Yeah, you should be asking them lots of questions, smacking em around a little with safety, being thick faced when they jeer, and pay close attention to the details, but they are the most enjoyable partners. Group flow states are interesting. "The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles." 

Did ya hear that part about us oldsters ya young pups? I’ll spell it out …

People tend to be happier as they get older because they can see that the glass is half full, understand it and mitigate the consequences, and then promptly refocus attention on the half full glass.  

Sounds like a perfect partner to me. :)

Marcus McCoy wrote:

The piece  about human factor traps was interesting, but I don't think those are all because of being "over psyched".   As a person with quite a lot of enthusiasm and motivation for the climbing experience I can say for certainty that being too psyched can mess with decision making. But, being too unpsyched can be negative as well. 

It sounds to me like people may be using the word "psyche" differently from others. 

Psyche is being mentally prepared to perform optimally. "Optimal" performance is a debatable thing, but I believe "psyche" is pretty closely related with the flow state; I have found that the more "psyched" I am for something the easier it is to enter the flow state. 

Personally, I love climbing with the crazy over stokers. These have always been the most memorable experiences in my climbing. Yeah, you should be asking them lots of questions, smacking em around a little with safety, being thick faced when they jeer, and pay close attention to the details, but they are the most enjoyable partners. Group flow states are interesting. "The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles.".                                                                   -Tradiban

Great quote!

I've climbed with the wild type, it's fun to start but gets old when the epic starts. It's a delicate balance, that "psyche" thing.

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Nearly all points, for and against psych, that any makes on here are all personal preferences…

I feel Tradiban was more arguing safety than personal preference.

Also, I was not speaking in absolutes. I said it can make them potentially more dangerous. My point was that usually an over-stoker is far more likely to get themselves (and/or others) is worse situations than a “normally stoked“ or unstoked person is. In my experience, usually people with “too much” pysch are the ones who are newer, or less experienced. I don’t know many experienced climbers who suffer from this. It sounds like maybe your idea of “too much” pysch differs from mine, but I would say it becomes “too much” when it can present injuries, accidents, etc. 

I would say it is parabolic. Like there are new climbers extremely psyched, most people who have been climbing a few years are lowish in psyche but then you have the super experienced who eat/breathe rock climbing that are still psyched out of their minds. I sent one of the most experienced developers in Washington a picture of absolute garbage choss, and he asked how long till I finished bolting it. 

Even in your example, if the one with too much pysch pressures the other individual into doing the traverse and it becomes dangerous at any point from there on, even on the a rappel, I would put blame on the over-stoker as they were the person in your example that wanted to continue on and therefore put both individuals in any precarious situations. 

I was more thinking of a climb where 99% of people get to the top since there isnt an easy way down, but if you can actually safely rap, then yes. 

Like you said, it kinda comes down to managing emotions, in this conversation we are discussing stoke/psych/optimism…but most people have a pretty good idea of the psych level of their partners prior to being put in a situation that could cause some sort of incident. I would also add that people freaking out over not sending or on a multi pitch are good examples of controlling emotion, but have nothing to do with being over-psyched…unless the high pysch got them into a predicament that then caused the crying, screaming, etc. 

I think it depends on the severity of freaking out.

Just to testify to my own over-stoker experience. Two weeks ago I told my friends this wall was gonna be wet but that I still wanted to go climb. We went out, there was a part of the climb that was running water, I french freed through it. I then got to the extension I hadnt done, I climb through it get to the last move of the crux and take a 30 foot fall trying to grab a wet hold. Some people thought I was dumb for going out and climbing what I knew was cold/wet rock, but I think I gained valuable beta insight on a day that would have been otherwise unproductive. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

I feel Tradiban was more arguing safety than personal preference.

Just to testify to my own over-stoker experience. Two weeks ago I told my friends this wall was gonna be wet but that I still wanted to go climb. We went out, there was a part of the climb that was running water, I french freed through it. I then got to the extension I hadnt done, I climb through it get to the last move of the crux and take a 30 foot fall trying to grab a wet hold. Some people thought I was dumb for going out and climbing what I knew was cold/wet rock, but I think I gained valuable beta insight on a day that would have been otherwise unproductive. 

Didn’t you say Tradiban was more arguing safety? What does this story have to do with safety except for weirdly bragging about climbing on wet rock, which most would argue is less safe than dry holds? Sounds like your posts more fall more into the too-muc-pysch-is-dangerous category   

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Didn’t you say Tradiban was more arguing safety? What does this story have to do with safety except for weirdly bragging about climbing on wet rock, which most would argue is less safe than dry holds? Sounds like your posts more fall more into the too-muc-pysch-is-dangerous category   

Mostly pointing out in some peoples eyes that behavior is dangerous and in others it is normal. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Mostly pointing out in some peoples eyes that behavior is dangerous and in others it is normal. 

Maybe, that still seems more supportive that over abundance of pysch leads to more dangerous scenarios though. Also, sport climbing on wet rock shouldn’t really ever be viewed as “normal” in my opinion. Especially when discussing with these things newer climbers, but we digress…

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Mostly pointing out in some peoples eyes that behavior is dangerous and in others it is normal. 

Being psyched to climb on wet rock is definitely "over stoked" or maybe just depression because you live in the NW?

Tradiban wrote:

Being psyched to climb on wet rock is definitely "over stoked" or maybe just depression because you live in the NW?

Ackchyually….while maybe not “psyched” in the traditional sense, climbing wet or in the rain at a carefree local crag (not deep in the backcountry on an overnighter mission) can be quite relaxing, fulfilling and tranquil.  Anti-depressive in fact. 

You generally have the place to yourself, it’s good practice if it happens when you ARE in the backcountry, and I find the patter of rain on goretex to be a soothing sound.  Gives a new twist to those same climbs you’ve been doing for years.   Climb a slippery 5.8 in the rain at DL with mountain boots and it at least feels like 5.12.  Plus makes a warm pub afterwards all the more satisfying.  Totally recommend it. 

Climbing on slicker than normal rock (wet, sandy, chossie, etc.) is the definition of over-stoked / over-psyched / positive toxicity?

I’d say yes if went into it knowing a) it would be unprotected and fall was likely, or b) not realizing your long-time partner would genuinely fear for their life, or c) your partner gave you the lead as they knew you were clueless.

But just being in those conditions? Insufficient data.

Lol. I do get the reference to depression and the NW (PNW?).  And Mark’s mention of enhanced pub’ing.

Mark Pilate wrote:

Ackchyually….while maybe not “psyched” in the traditional sense, climbing wet or in the rain at a carefree local crag (not deep in the backcountry on an overnighter mission) can be quite relaxing, fulfilling and tranquil.  Anti-depressive in fact. 

You generally have the place to yourself, it’s good practice if it happens when you ARE in the backcountry, and I find the patter of rain on goretex to be a soothing sound.  Gives a new twist to those same climbs you’ve been doing for years.   Climb a slippery 5.8 in the rain at DL with mountain boots and it at least feels like 5.12.  Plus makes a warm pub afterwards all the more satisfying.  Totally recommend it. 

I agree but wet rock is most obviously more dangerous than dry rock (safety third!), and being psyched because you're needlessly doing something dangerous is what I'm talking about.