Freerider & those who have climbed it, answer me this...

Eric Metzgar wrote:

I'm not going to climb multi-pitch lead in Yosemite. Ever. I'm nearing 50 with two knees problems and two little kids.

As a tangent from the original topic: I'd encourage you to reconsider this sentiment. Yosemite offers some very mellow, accessible multipitch climbs that can be enjoyed by people at any level. As a NorCal climber, it is worth seeking out these experiences; don't let perceived inaccessibility hold you back.

I went to Yosemite over Thanksgiving with my girlfriend, who is very psyched but lacking in climbing talent or athletic gifts. Think stoked 5.7 toproper and slow hiker. Over the weekend we enjoyed multiple pleasant 5.6 short multipitch routes, without having to walk more than a few minutes from the road. Was a great introduction to Yosemite climbing for her.

If she can do it, so can you. You sound quite interested in the topic, so I expect you'd get a lot from experiencing Yosemite climbing for yourself. You don't even need to be leading to get a sense of the rock and climbing style. Hiring a guide is a reasonable option if you just want to try it out once.

Returning to the gym analogy: the problem with comparing the Freerider solo to the gym is that what makes the solo impressive/horrifying is not the pure physical difficulty (such as what you encounter on the gym lead wall), but rather the insecure technical nature of some portions of the climbing, with fatal consequences of a foot slip on a tiny granite foothold.

The only reasonable gym analogy I can think of is to find a heinously polished gym V7 (maybe make that V8 or V9 to account for gym grade creep) with small slopey holds on the vert or slab wall, and picture doing it with 2000 feet of air underneath. After, of course, climbing 2000 feet to get there.

Eric Metzgar wrote:

I'm not going to climb multi-pitch lead in Yosemite. Ever. I'm nearing 50…

Multi-pitch is simply not the big deal you think it may be. It’s really no more risky than single pitch if you’re not an idiot.

Nearing 50 you say? Oh calm down, youngster! I’ll be 67 in a few days and if I wanted to lug around a trad rack I wouldn’t give a second thought about repeating some of my Valley faves, although I’d want a rope gun for certain pitches.

JCM wrote:

Returning to the gym analogy: the problem with comparing the Freerider solo to the gym is that what makes the solo impressive/horrifying is not the pure physical difficulty (such as what you encounter on the gym lead wall), but rather the insecure technical nature of some portions of the climbing, with fatal consequences of a foot slip on a tiny granite foothold.

The only reasonable gym analogy I can think of is to find a heinously polished gym V7 (maybe make that V8 or V9 to account for gym grade creep) with small slopey holds on the vert or slab wall, and picture doing it with 2000 feet of air underneath. After, of course, climbing 2000 feet to get there.

The really impressive thing about soloing the crux pitch is that the hardest sequence has a very committing move, is nearly impossible to reverse, and looks to be pretty low percentage if you do not execute it absolutely perfectly.  That's the sort of thing that isn't reflected in a simple number grade.  (I haven't climbed the route, but that's what I get from watching the film).  And remember that he chose that sequence over the alternative, the Teflon Corner, which gets an easier YDS grade but is even more insecure.

Eric Metzgar wrote:

God no. 

Just for sheer enjoyment and awe, I'm pondering Alex's physical/mental in-the-moment experience and trying to understand how hard the climb was/is, as compared to, let's say, a gym route of the same grade. Rough math-- is it like 20 gym-height pitches of 5.13a in row? 

Not sure if you’re trolling, but I recently climbed el cap (with aid) and part of my training was climbing 30 pitches at the gym in 3 hours twice a week for the last 2 weeks leading up to it (up to 12-)  That felt like a warm up compared to climbing the real thing. Probably 1/10th the amount of effort, and I didn’t free anything over 5.10 on the wall.

saign charlestein wrote:

Not sure if you’re trolling, but I recently climbed el cap (with aid) and part of my training was climbing 30 pitches at the gym in 3 hours twice a week for the last 2 weeks leading up to it (up to 12-)  That felt like a warm up compared to climbing the real thing. Probably 1/10th the amount of effort, and I didn’t free anything over 5.10 on the wall.

No, not trolling. Wow, that's insane!

If it weren't for the final 10' of the boulder problem, requiring switching from static balanced crimping into a swinging dynamic karate kick deadpoint into an obtuse corner, I bet Potter might have seriously considered soling FR and I think Honnold clearly would have done it earlier with much less prep and care. That single short section is ~3+ V grades harder than anything else on the wall and sickening to imagine doing without a belay. Most of the route is pretty blue collar and secure for a granite crack guru, with the exception of some slippery/techy v3-v4 boulders (starting the monster, starting the hollowflake, off Heart Ledge, Freeblast P4.) And Alex found ways to avoid 2 or 3 of those other insecure boulders.

Having been up on Easy Rider with Dean when he solo’d it, I think he was farther away from soloing the whole thing than most people think.  And if he went for it, it surely would have been in orders of magnitude more terrifying than when Alex did it.  Alex was pretty much laughing through that section of the climb and Dean was growling like a wild animal.  I was super gripped (granted I was always gripped while shooting soloing…)

The entry in to the Monster isn’t that bad if you take the low route, that is what Alex did.  It involves more wide climbing but it is way more secure.  I’m sorta surprised it hasn’t become more normal to go that way.

And I think one of the other major cruxes is the slab on freeblast.  That would feel incredibly insecure without a rope….  I don’t have a breakdown of how much time he spent on the Boulder problem vs. the slab but he put some serious work in to the slab.  

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Having been up on Easy Rider with Dean when he solo’d it, I think he was farther away from soloing the whole thing than most people think.  And if he went for it, it surely would have been in orders of magnitude more terrifying than when Alex did it.  Alex was pretty much laughing through that section of the climb and Dean was growling like a wild animal.  I was super gripped (granted I was always gripped while shooting soloing…)

Mikey - How would the "easy rider" downclimb go in reverse, if you had to suggest a difficulty grade? Would't it be the logical finish for the easiest free route up the full cliff? I'm sure it's dirty and full of blocks right now, but if Potter downsoloed it, wouldn't it (if cleaned) at least be marginally easier than the normal FR finish from roundtable ledge, skipping the SB?

JCM wrote:

"... my girlfriend, ... lacking in climbing talent or athletic gifts." 

Damn Dude!  I hope that she doesn't frequent the MP forums much.

Chris Gardner wrote:

You'd probably enjoy reading this thread: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117753720/training-for-freerider-tips

I think a lot of 'elite' sport climbers (how are we defining this? 5.14a RP?) would fail to climb Freerider without putting in a ton of work (obviously doesn't apply to Ondra et al). It's just a way different style and different kind of fitness.

I personally doubt Alex's solo will ever be repeated. It was a multi year project for him, and since it's already been done I think the other soloists will gravitate towards other objectives.

Adam tried to flash the Salathe and fell on the first of the headwall pitch.

ETA: it's pretty safe to assume he'd indeed have flashed Freerider ...

Buck Rogers wrote:

Damn Dude!  I hope that she doesn't frequent the MP forums much.

Her words, not mine.

blakeherrington wrote:

Mikey - How would the "easy rider" downclimb go in reverse, if you had to suggest a difficulty grade? Would't it be the logical finish for the easiest free route up the full cliff? 

I only rapped down it once and never watched Dean climb that section.  I think he said it was maybe only 10+??  The traverse over too it would be a little funky but not really that big of a deal.  I remember it only being one section of real climbing.  

Ivo Ninov always claimed there would be an 11+ free route up el cap.  It is probably really close to happening but there are one or two blank sections if I remember correctly.   He envisioned bypassing the Boulder problem out to the left and around the corner. I believe that crack slowly widens and leads right to the Round table.   Another possible option would be sneaking out left around the spire to what I guess would be Excalibur or maybe Bermuda Dunes.  If there was another Jardine Traverse up there it would probably go!  It would be pretty damn amazing to free climb that section of el cap at 11+.  Although the conga line would probably run from the start of free blast all the way to Curry Village!

Talking of easier FR variations, what about out right of the Boulder problem? There are some grassy cracks there that seem to lead to the easier angled rock below the sewer. Maybe with a bit of cleaning…

I was standing at the boulder problem belay for a while and belaying a friend on a circuitous toprope follow of the Teflon, which was out of my view around the corner. With nothing else to do I kept staring at that arete between us and wondering if it could be climbed, perhaps much more easily than the existing route. It has a bunch of big holds and wouldn't require many vertical meters of arete/face climbing to where it gets really easy when the Boulder Problem joins in. From 25' away I couldn't tell if the distances between the obvious holds would be simple moderate reach moves or impossible for a normal sized person, and I couldn't see the left side of the arete. It's at least worth spending 5 minutes looking at if someone reads this before heading up the climb. It's a couple feet left of the all the "P" pitons in this new topo.

(it's also strange that all the topos show 4 bolts on the 3-bolt pitch which is so short and incredibly well known and photographed to have this wrong)

blakeherrington wrote:

With nothing else to do I kept staring at that arete between us and wondering if it could be climbed,

The original Salathe travels between at A1 and it’s been tried by many, hence the 2 free variations.

All kinds of Vhard to Vimpossible links between more reasonable cracks, all over the Valley.  Jardine had vision and in his last magazine interview back in the day suggested a line of bolted gym holds up El Cap represented the future - and he might be right in another generation or two.

Eric Metzgar wrote:

Yeah, OP here. For those of you commenting or soon to comment with something like -- "well, go climb Yosemite and you'll see there's no comparison with gym climbing..." 

I'm not going to climb multi-pitch lead in Yosemite. Ever. I'm nearing 50 with two knees problems and two little kids. So I'm trying to use 1) my imagination and 2) what I do know (gym climbing and moderate single-pitch outdoor stuff)... to try to comprehend the difficulty of Alex's feat. So the kind of answer I'm seeking, if you wanna be helpful and not a snarky MP smartass, would be something like: "Well, in gym terms, Freerider would be like ____."  And yes, again, I know they're not the same, but they are comparable.  Because when two things aren't the same, you compare them. 

Geez, is it possible to daydream on MP?

Yes it is possible to daydream.  The following is not meant in any snarky way.  Just my take. I don't think it's possible for ME to comprehend it, or for YOU to comprehend it, for the following reason:

I have climbed for a long time, in Yosemite and many other places, on many types of rock, on almost every type of climb.  For each of those rock/route type combos, what I can comprehend is doing all of those things at about 3 letter grades harder than I have done on each of those experiences, and that is because I have understood what it felt like to progress through all of the number and letter grades that lead up to my hardest experience.  So for example I can comprehend what a 5.12c Apron slab route would feel like and what it would take to do that.  I'm crap at offwidth but I've done enough of it to kind of comprehend what a 10d off width would be like.   Etc.   my body and my mind can understand it.  But I cannot really comprehend anything harder than that. I cannot comprehend a 5.13 finger crack.  I cannot comprehend a 5.14 limestone sport route. I can see it, I can believe it, I can admire it, but that's it.  

You want to do this comprehension comparison based on what you know and understand, but do you really comprehend a 5.12 or 5.13 gym route? Can you see the moves and feel them in your body? 

Anyway, others have said to you, and I agree, that gym routes typically do not compare in any way and cannot give you any sense of what it takes to climb even similar grades in Yosemite Valley.  I've climbed at every gym in the Bay area and it was exceedingly rare to find any routes that approximated in feel what was being set in the gym.  Sometimes they would set nice slab routes but these typically used chips and were't like the Yosemite slabs. The cracks could be great training but just because you trained those muscle groups, or desensitized the toe and foot pain, not because the cracks felt like Valley cracks.

The above doesn't even touch on soloing and the mental components.  Which I think is the more difficult component in what he did and what other hard soloists do.

I'm saddened to hear you do not daydream about leading multipitch in Yosemite.  If I still lived there I would go with you and help you achieve that.  It's very satisfying.  50 is way too young to say never, ever.

I pulled a gumby move and power screamed on a 5.11b yesterday so it’s safe to say that Freerider would have killed me, rope or no rope...