BLM TO CHARGE $20 TO ACCESS CALICO BASIN; WILL BUILD TOLL BOOTH

Something that wasn't clear to me from the draft RAMP/EA they released and about which people have commented: Is the proposed $20-30 per day charge for Calico Basin access mandatory, or is it waived like the loop road fee if you have a Red Rock pass or national parks pass? If it is mandatory, or hell even if it isn't, how can they charge 1.33-2x what they charge for the loop road?!

edit: thanks for the insight tom d. but I still think it's ridiculous they want to charge more for Calico than the loop road

phylp phylp wrote:

Of course as a climber this is yet another example of the frustrating changes we are seeing that impact the way we are used to using an area.

But what bothers me even more about this is that every time I have been there, the picnic area and the surrounding trails have been in use by what seems like local families.  Of course it's impossible to say just based on "looks" but these folks don't look like they are in the wealthy class.  This fee I would guess will be a real barrier.  I live in CA, but if I lived in town, I would contact the Parks and Rec Dept of Clark County, City of Las Vegas, and City of North Las Vegas or even the Clark County Board of Supervisors and see if there is anyone there sympathetic to a resource being taken away from the local "underprivileged".  There would be far more power coming from that direction if someone took offense at the fee and changes than any climber organization could ever muster.

I don't think this would be your intention here, but I would be careful co-opting the plight of the underprivileged and their ostensible loss of access for the benefit of climbers...

phylp phylp wrote:

... see if there is anyone there sympathetic to a resource being taken away from the local "underprivileged".  There would be far more power coming from that direction if someone took offense at the fee and changes than any climber organization could ever muster.

I think you are exactly right. I can't help but notice on the out-dated website for Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition, nobody even seems to maintain that website anymore. On the front page, among the other out-dated info is a post about how the SNCC supports Black Lives Matters.

It's the height of hypocrisy, parading Black Lives Matters on a climbing organization's website and represents nothing but empty virtue signaling. Meanwhile, at the same time the organization stands idle as the free hiking area closest to town gets locked up behind toll booths, requiring a credit card and access to a computer. And to be sure, those people will be chased out of the area before the sun goes down.

I'm not the kind of person that says, "everything is racist" but the amount of hypocritical BS around here is pretty galling. To the SNCC, Black Lives Matter but "those people" should probably just stay in town.

https://www.southernnevadaclimberscoalition.org/featured/black-lives-matter/

KrisG wrote:

I don't think this would be your intention here, but I would be careful co-opting the plight of the underprivileged and their ostensible loss of access for the benefit of climbers...

Thank you. you are right that was not my intention.

I genuinely would regret the loss of that free resource for the local community. Families being together, local hikers and local climbers all would benefit from some policy that retained free access for locals.
As an outsider, I’ll deal with whatever I have to deal with for the few times a year I would go there. 

KrisG wrote:

I don't think this would be your intention here, but I would be careful co-opting the plight of the underprivileged and their ostensible loss of access for the benefit of climbers...

SNCC had no problem "co-opting the plight of the underprivileged" when the virtue signaling made them look and feel good.

Now, when SNCC and "Access" Fund have an opportunity to fight against the loss of access for the underprivileged, they are completely silent.

I have my own opinions on the Access Fund that I won't expound on here.

The SNCC, on the other hand, despite not updating their webpage, has been very active on Instagram over the past week about this.  They've encouraged involvement and writing in.  They are likely still working on a formal statement, and I'm hopeful they are having discussions with the BLM.

We went through the same shenanigans in Utah.  The Forest Service would talk to everyone except the SLCA about land use, access, and development.  The organization was often blindsided because land managers intentionally left the climber user groups out of discussion.

Admittedly I'm not a local but I have had no issues with the current system. Minor inconveniences considering what's happening out there. I agree processing fees are complete BS.. but are almost completely avoidable (i.e., you can enter the park before 8am). Late exit cost, yes, that's unfortunate.

If these things were free Joe nobody and his 1000's of kindred brethren would all be getting reservations and late exit passes and bailing with no consequence. And that certainly does nothing to help our cause. 

Climbers are generally appreciative and respectful of the land. I think your average tourist needs skin in the game to stay honest. If $20 keeps a single littering, pooping, boombox blaring, drone flying jerk out of the park, that's just fantastic. 

My suggestion: wake up early, skip the reservation, go climb, let the tourists pay fees. Moving along...

Let's face it, climbing has jumped the shark.  It's a mainstream sport now.  You can blame indoor gyms, or Instagram, or Mountain Project, but we aren't ever going back to the good old days.  I've only been climbing 20 years, but the changes are notable.  I can't imagine how the old timers must feel.  Recently, I struggled to get a site at Jumbo Rocks and because of the new reservation system, I ended up paying for one of those stupid bot services that alerts you to open sites due to cancellations.  Got a site, great.  Go out there and literally half of the campground was empty due to no shows.  Fucking almost lost my mind.  

Then a couple weeks ago, was out at Calico Basin and could not fucking believe the amount of dog shit everywhere.  I'd wager 90% of it due to climbers who feel the need to bring their fucking dogs everywhere.  All off leash.  Shitting everywhere.  Jesus Christ, people.  This is why we can't have nice things.

But I'm a paying member of a big corporate gym.  I post climbing pics on Instagram.  I post here on MP.  I've introduced others to climbing.  I guess I am as much to blame as anyone else.  At least I pack my fucking shit out in a plastic bag.  

I'm in such a bad mood.  Just read that Tuolumne Meadows Campground will be closed through 2024, maybe 2025 for renovations.  That's great.  Just great!

J B wrote:

Climbers are generally appreciative and respectful of the land. 

Lol, I used to think that too. 

Here's the thing, your post really shows what I've come to learn; that a lot climbers have a "better than" mentality. News flash, if you travel here to climb but don't live here you are a tourist and contributing to the overcrowding problem we are discussing, you don't get special status cause you are a climber. That's great that you can work the system and get what you need on your holiday, but a lot of concerns from people on this forum is about how this affects locals, yes even the ones that fly drones and drive 4x4 RC trucks.  

My proposal: ban all tourists, make red rock for locals only brah

 I can't imagine how the old timers must feel.

Oh we mostly feel all right.   After 40-years in the game the goal posts just keep moving. My days of visiting super popular and busy places are mostly in the rearview. When I do visit it will be early, late, off-season to the extent possible. In recent years I have been content to find and visit out of the way, backwater and unknown areas, at the expense of the qualities that make super popular areas super popular. In fact my first consideration, most of the time, for any given "what to do" day is - what's the likelihood of encountering other climbers there? It needs to be pretty low for me to be interested. 

This old timer song sums up this approach nicely:

We all live on the edge of town
Where we all live, ain't a soul around
People startin' comin'
All we do is just a-grin
Said we've got to move out
'Cause the city's moving in
I said we've got to move out
'Cause the city's moving in

Nobody knows where, nobody shows where
Nobody knows where you can find me, yeah

Off the grid. Its what we all do, eventually. 

Areosmith's Moving Out

Ashort wrote:

Here's the thing, your post really shows what I've come to learn; that a lot climbers have a "better than" mentality. News flash, if you travel here to climb but don't live here you are a tourist and contributing to the overcrowding problem we are discussing, you don't get special status cause you are a climber.

This, esp. the bolded bit.

I was/am always amused when climbers complain about "the tourons" in Yosemite.

Tourist perhaps not the best word choice. 

I don't think most climbers have a "better than" mentality. I do think that a great deal of climbers take pride in the fact that they are stewards of shared outdoor spaces versus your average visitor, who is just a visitor.

Obviously there are exceptions. 

To get back on topic, I'm personally curious to hear what OP's major long term concerns are (5 years+). Mine, I just want to see access maintained. I'm totally open to fees in order to keep access. 

Charlie S wrote:

The SNCC, on the other hand, despite not updating their webpage, has been very active on Instagram over the past week about this.  

Whoa!! One whole post on Instagram! Very active! Lol.  

J B wrote:

Admittedly I'm not a local but I have had no issues with the current system. Minor inconveniences considering what's happening out there.

Sure cutting down the crowds might make for a better experience but there are other aspects that you are not considering.

The operating hours will surely be enforced with extreme law enforcement zeal. If the rules were in place right now, you would have a ticket on your windshield if you get back to your car at 5:01pm. Those tickets cost hundreds of dollars. Got your rope stuck? Suck it! Bad decisions get made on the wall when you are rushed out for arbitrary time limits. Much like the first and second pull-outs, there will be no late exit permits available. I've long said the Loop operating hours are crap, and now Calico Basin will suffer the same.

The operating hours in the Summer are way worse. It doesn't get dark until after 9pm. Plan on being chased out in broad daylight because you'll be fined after 8pm. In the summer, waiting for things to cool down in the evening to hike back out is a survival strategy.

A lot of the problems associated with crowding could possibly be addressed by patrols on the trails. Rangers walking around telling people to turn down there music and leash their dogs, etc., would have gone a long way to protecting the land. The BLM has let Red Rock rot away with zero protective patrols. They had a solution a long time ago, they just had to create a problem in order to implement it. Look at the never-ending stream of car break-ins. No enforcement. They suddenly put the loop road reservation system in place last year with no public input. This shifted a large amount of crowds to Calico Basin. This was the BLM's own doing, and SNCC just silently stood by. 

The Calico Basin residents stand to gain millions in property values as they receive a gated community structure and 24-hour guard service provided free of charge to them. One of the stars of rock climbing just bought a mansion out there, for example. Have you heard him complain about the new regulations? While the cops rush the peasants out by closing time, you can be sure he and his friends will be happily bouldering away as they please. He will merely submit a guest list to the gate personnel so his friends on the SNCC board can sail through the VIP lane while the local tax-payers are locked out. His property value has already increased $400,000 since the gated-community plan has been announced. And no doubt, he earned his millions with his Hollywood movie that glorified climbing to the masses and his Instagram pics kicked climbing into high gear, contributing to the crowding problem we all see today.

"Access" Fund has already posted that they are resigned to the new regime and will not fight it. The SNCC has been captured by high-level donors with conflicts of interest and they will stand idly by while this comes to pass. They don't care because they will get juiced in.

Look at Red Rock Rehab this weekend. While "Access" Fund abandons us, they and the SNCC have the peasants out at Kraft Boulders, grooming the star climber's backyard - he will repay the dirtbags with a little slide show and free beer. The local climbing community is getting played for fools.

And by the way, the most well known activity of the SNCC over the years, was the Red Rock Rendezvous, which brought THOUSANDS of climbers to Red Rock and contributed greatly to the crowding at the crags. That was just a money grab for the local climbing-related businesses and Red Rock suffered immensely as a result.

John Hegyes wrote:

Sure cutting down the crowds might make for a better experience but there are other aspects that you are not considering.

The operating hours will surely be enforced with extreme law enforcement zeal. If the rules were in place right now, you would have a ticket on your windshield if you get back to your car at 5:01pm. Those tickets cost hundreds of dollars. Got your rope stuck? Suck it! Bad decisions get made on the wall when you are rushed out for arbitrary time limits. Much like the first and second pull-outs, there will be no late exit permits available. I've long said the Loop operating hours are crap, and now Calico Basin will suffer the same.

The operating hours in the Summer are way worse. It doesn't get dark until after 9pm. Plan on being chased out in broad daylight because you'll be fined after 8pm. In the summer, waiting for things to cool down in the evening to hike back out is a survival strategy.

A lot of the problems associated with crowding could possibly be addressed by patrols on the trails. Rangers walking around telling people to turn down there music and leash their dogs, etc., would have gone a long way to protecting the land. The BLM has let Red Rock rot away with zero protective patrols. They had a solution a long time ago, they just had to create a problem in order to implement it. Look at the never-ending stream of car break-ins. No enforcement. They suddenly put the loop road reservation system in place last year with no public input. This shifted a large amount of crowds to Calico Basin. This was the BLM's own doing, and SNCC just silently stood by. 

The Calico Basin residents stand to gain millions in property values as they receive a gated community structure and 24-hour guard service provided free of charge to them. One of the stars of rock climbing just bought a mansion out there, for example. Have you heard him complain about the new regulations? While the cops rush the peasants out by closing time, you can be sure he and his friends will be happily bouldering away as they please. He will merely submit a guest list to the gate personnel so his friends on the SNCC board can sail through the VIP lane while the local tax-payers are locked out. His property value has already increased $400,000 since the gated-community plan has been announced. And no doubt, he earned his millions with his Hollywood movie that glorified climbing to the masses and his Instagram pics kicked climbing into high gear, contributing to the crowding problem we all see today.

"Access" Fund has already posted that they are resigned to the new regime and will not fight it. The SNCC has been captured by high-level donors with conflicts of interest and they will stand idly by while this comes to pass. They don't care because they will get juiced in.

Look at Red Rock Rehab this weekend. While "Access" Fund abandons us, they and the SNCC have the peasants out at Kraft Boulders, grooming the star climber's backyard - he will repay the dirtbags with a little slide show and free beer. The local climbing community is getting played for fools.

And by the way, the most well known activity of the SNCC over the years, was the Red Rock Rendezvous, which brought THOUSANDS of climbers to Red Rock and contributed greatly to the crowding at the crags. That was just a money grab for the local climbing-related businesses and Red Rock suffered immensely as a result.

Lots of good thoughts. I have nothing to add but to say that these famous climbers need to learn to lock down their public info on their property, easy to dox chris and alex. Nose house, lol

and to be fair the price increase is likely due to the house being sold unfinished and is likely finished now. 

you wanna feel real pissed look at the renderings on this: zillow.com/homedetails/0-Ca…?

Heard they are checking proof of vaccination before you can enter

Jason Kim wrote:

Then a couple weeks ago, was out at Calico Basin and could not fucking believe the amount of dog shit everywhere.  I'd wager 90% of it due to climbers who feel the need to bring their fucking dogs everywhere.  All off leash.  Shitting everywhere.  Jesus Christ, people.  This is why we can't have nice things.

Again, these are the types of issues that the Access Fund should address directly, instead of doing their same, spineless deference to the "conservation" efforts of the BLM.

The Calico Basin residents stand to gain millions in property values as they receive a gated community structure and 24-hour guard service provided free of charge to them. One of the stars of rock climbing just bought a mansion out there, for example. Have you heard him complain about the new regulations? While the cops rush the peasants out by closing time, you can be sure he and his friends will be happily bouldering away as they please. He will merely submit a guest list to the gate personnel so his friends on the SNCC board can sail through the VIP lane while the local tax-payers are locked out. His property value has already increased $400,000 since the gated-community plan has been announced. And no doubt, he earned his millions with his Hollywood movie that glorified climbing to the masses and his Instagram pics kicked climbing into high gear, contributing to the crowding problem we all see today.

"Access" Fund has already posted that they are resigned to the new regime and will not fight it. The SNCC has been captured by high-level donors with conflicts of interest and they will stand idly by while this comes to pass. They don't care because they will get juiced in.

Look at Red Rock Rehab this weekend. While "Access" Fund abandons us, they and the SNCC have the peasants out at Kraft Boulders, grooming the star climber's backyard - he will repay the dirtbags with a little slide show and free beer. The local climbing community is getting played for fools.

And by the way, the most well known activity of the SNCC over the years, was the Red Rock Rendezvous, which brought THOUSANDS of climbers to Red Rock and contributed greatly to the crowding at the crags. That was just a money grab for the local climbing-related businesses and Red Rock suffered immensely as a result.

This is the crux of the issue.  A few pro climbers and businesses made off like bandits over the last decade of climbing's surge in popularity.  These figureheads claim to be advocates for the community but won't stick their necks out for local Vegas climbers.  Nobody even has the guts to promote a reasonable alternative to a day-use fee area.  This is a colossal failure for the Access Fund and shows how much the pros who live in Vegas really suck.

Hey guys,

Just want to make it clear that the SNCC did not host the Rendezvous.  It was hosted by a company from the north west through a special recreation permit issued by the BLM.

In 2019, we did host the Rehab, the first of its name.  We plan on hosting again this weekend.  It is a multi-day event focused around service projects.

-JJ

rock freak wrote:

 A few pro climbers and businesses made off like bandits over the last decade of climbing's surge in popularity.  These figureheads claim to be advocates for the community but won't stick their necks out for local Vegas climbers.  Nobody even has the guts to promote a reasonable alternative to a day-use fee area.  This is a colossal failure for the Access Fund and shows how much the pros who live in Vegas really suck.

Has anyone publicly asked any of the Vegas big shot climbers how they feel about the management plan?

Jorge Jordan wrote:

Just want to make it clear that the SNCC did not host the Rendezvous.  It was hosted by a company from the north west through a special recreation permit issued by the BLM.

"The third annual “Mountain Gear Presents: Red Rock Rendezvous” rock climbing festival will return to the Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area near Las Vegas on March 24-26, 2006, to benefit The Access Fund and other local and national non-profit organizations." https://outdoorindustry.org/press-release/mountain-gear-presents-red-rock-rendezvous-returns-to-las-vegas-for-third-annual-event/

"The 2009 climbing festival raised approximately $15,000 for non-profit organizations including: The Access Fund, a national non-profit organization dedicated to keeping climbing areas open and conserving the climbing environment; American Safe Climbing Association; American Alpine Club; Friends of Red Rock; and the Las Vegas Climbers Liaison Council. The event also garnered 100 more memberships for the Access Fund."  https://www.climbing.com/news/mountain-gears-red-rock-rendezvous-enjoys-sixth-successful-year/

"The event supports local organizations, such as the Las Vegas Climbers Liaison Council and Friends of Red Rock Canyon... The event benefits the Access Fund, the parent organization to the Las Vegas Climbers Liaison Council and one that places emphasis on the formation of local climbing associations." https://www.reviewjournal.com/life/recreation/red-rock-rendezvous-heading-to-new-heights/

"The slideshows are part of the first annual Southern Nevada Climbing Festival, a membership drive and fundraiser for the Las Vegas Climbers Liaison Council (LVCLC) and the Access Fund. Admission to the 3-day festival is available by purchasing a joint membership with the LVCLC and the Access Fund for as little as $35 ($40 at the door), and includes entry to both slideshows (with FREE food & beverages), a T-shirt and stainless steel mug. Visit LVCLC.org to register. " http://climbrefuge.com/refuge-to-host-alex-johnson-joe-kinder-slideshows/

"For the SNCC, the fight involves messaging through web forums like Mountain Project, mega-gatherings like the annual Red Rock Rendezvous and fundraising events like the recent Reel Rock Film Tour party at the Refuge climbing gym." https://lasvegasweekly.com/news/2016/apr/07/southern-nevada-climbers-coalition-blm-access-fund/#/0

*** LVCLC was Las Vegas Climber's Liaison Council, the precursor to the SNCC, a subsidiary of "Access" Fund.

"Access" Fund was more than happy to profit tens of thousands of dollars on the destruction and overcrowding of Red Rock. Now, they won't spend a penny to defend our access.