Using vice grips to untie a stuck knot?

Stan Hampton wrote:

Have you ever actually tried tying it?  Many climbers have trouble just tying a simple fig eight follow.  

I can do it with my eyes closed.  Of course, I can also do an 8 with my eyes closed.

The only times I even use any 8 an more is if I am in a new gym that makes me use it, I am doing a lead test with someone at my regular gym that allows the bowline (they generally don't know it, so they can't check it, so they would technically fail as soon as they let me start climbing) or if I am doing a TR route and I am too lazy to untie the first figure 8 already in the rope.

Stan Hampton wrote:

Have you ever actually tried tying it?  Many climbers have trouble just tying a simple fig eight follow.  

Another advantage I see in this knot is that if you get distracted and fail to complete the rethread, you still have a single bowline into your harness.  There are issues with the single bowline in climbing, but that's what they use for sailing, and I have never seen a knot blow out of a sheet releasing the sail.  I would 100% whip on a single bowline.  If you don't follow through on your 8, you don't have any knot at all.

Marc H wrote:

It might be kind of tough with a welded knot that happens to be close to your tie-in points, but a great way to deal with knots without damaging the sheath is to pound it with a rock (or hammer in you’re indoors) with medium pressure as your roll the knot back and forth. I definitely wouldn’t use anything that has the potential to tear/damage the sheath like pliers/vice grips. 

I've beat on a tight knot with a boot heel, but NFW I'd pound on my lifeline with a rock.

How are vice grips used to untie a knot? Clamp the end, twist, and push?

Pino Pepino wrote:

Then those probably shouldn't use it (or engage in an activity like climbing at all). While tying the knot is a bit more involved than a figure of eight, it's straightforward and just a matter of practice. Also it is much easier to untie after falling. There's a million videos on youtube how to do it if you search for 'doppelter bulin'.

I agree. Those people should prob not use it.
I know how to tie it. I agree it is not that difficult but I have been climbing for 20yrs. 

But a figure 8 is much easier to tie, takes less time, less rope, most climbers recognize it and can check it easily, it doesnt need a backup knot and, if you know how, it is easy to untie even after several falls.  But I see where the bowline is useful for projecting.  

“Most climbers recognize it and can check it easily,”

True, but the other stuff isn’t really.

Stan Hampton wrote:

How exactly do you tie this to a harness?

You just kind of wiggle your harness and the rope around a bit until that loop and the tie in loops of the harness intersect.

It's like disconnecting those wrought iron tangled puzzle pieces they sell at county fairs.

wivanoff wrote:

Yes, absolutely. Start with a simple bowline and rethread the second loop.  I have no problem with it. I'm told it's a common tie in used in Germany

du wirst sterben

Stan Hampton wrote:

But a figure 8 is much easier to tie, takes less time, less rope, most climbers recognize it and can check it easily, it doesnt need a backup knot and, if you know how, it is easy to untie even after several falls. But I see where the bowline is useful for projecting.

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times but it is certainly not true. 

I'm not advocating that everybody uses this knot to tie in, but if using a bowline to tie in, this is certainly the best variant. Anyways, that's probably enough thread drift.

Vice-grips, rock, marlin spike, hammer, screwdriver?!?

Ya all gonna die.

Pino Pepino wrote:

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times but it is certainly not true. 

I'm not advocating that everybody uses this knot to tie in, but if using a bowline to tie in, this is certainly the best variant. Anyways, that's probably enough thread drift.

Talking about the fig 8, the fig 8 does not need a "back up" knot.

Gregory Clay wrote:

..why is it we don't teach newbies the best figure 8 and just let them suffer?

Yes...Why is that?

Yes...Why is that?

So we can see the look on their faces when we hand them the vice grips.

I like the way Alexander The Great undid knots.

The Bowline was a popular tie-in knot in the States 40-50 years ago. it went away for good reasons.

I have never seen a Bowline fail on a sail, but I have spent lots of time with a Marlinspike & a Bowline. I have never had to use a Marlinspike on a Figure of 8.

Mark Frumkin wrote:

I like the way Alexander The Great undid knots.

The Bowline was a popular tie-in knot in the States 40-50 years ago. it went away for good reasons.

I have never seen a Bowline fail on a sail, but I have spent lots of time with a Marlinspike & a Bowline. I have never had to use a Marlinspike on a Figure of 8.

My point about the single bowline is that if you get distracted half way through tying a bowline on a bight, you still have a knot that will hold you.  I would not climb on it intentionally, and I can't say if it will weld or not, but it will hold a fall.  You can't say the same about the 8.

I am curious which bowline knot was popular oh those many years ago and why it went away.  I think the bowline reduces rope strength a tad more than the 8, but not enough to make a difference in any survivable fall on a modern rope.

The Bowline went away because of people tieing it wrong - a lot, & our equipment changed. I like the Bowline it's my friend, I'll use no other knot on my main or headsail, but I use the figure of eight when climbing because it's easy to get right & check, & it's standard. I can look at everybody's tie-in & see if it's right or wrong quickly & easily. There is often more than one right way to do something. 

If you needed a marlinspike on a bowline you tied it incorrectly 

Or you have been at sea & it has gotten a good workout & now it's dry and locked. It's a great knot & almost always easy to untie. 

Tradiban wrote:

Talking about the fig 8, the fig 8 does not need a "back up" knot.

And neither does the rethreaded bowline (which is the point I was trying to make but obviously failed to get across).

I started out using bowline for tie-in. Then the fig 8 came along and I adopted it. In my opinion, the reason fig 8 became popular is the same reason cordelettes suddenly popped up on everyone's harnesses: the how to books started teaching it that way. It's really that simple. And for the record I never liked that cordelette nonsense and did not submit. To hell with John Long.