Crampons vs Ski Crampons

Spring AT season in the Rockies!  At what point(s) on the spectrum of angle and conditions do YOU ditch the ski crampons, just shoulder your planks and strap on some gen-mo twelve points?  

Stephen Felker wrote:

Spring AT season in the Rockies!  At what point(s) on the spectrum of angle and conditions do YOU ditch the ski crampons, just shoulder your planks and strap on some gen-mo twelve points?  

20* ice

25* pencil

30* four fingers

35* fist

Seriously though, how do you expect people to even answer this? Nobody is busting out the inclinometer and digging snow pits when they transition. Come to think of it, nobody uses ski crampons in the rockies either!

You break out the boot crampons before it gets too tough to transition from ski crampons to boot crampons. A nice place with limited fall potential or hazard on the flatish run out before a col is a good option. Using trees and rocks can help too.

Like Bogdan said, these things are hard to quantify. You just get a feel for it. But in the Wasatch (still the rockies??) we use ski crampons a lot in the spring.

I switch to boot crampons upon reaching a point where either skins, or skins and ski crampons will not let me climb uphill. This can vary widely based on the skier’s skill level, type of skins, and conditions.

Usually, though, I choose an uphill track so I don’t need to boot.

edit - I totally agree with what Scott posted above! Location for the transition is an important decision.

I normally find I'm faster on regular crampons if the snow is consolidated so in moderate terrain or steeper (above ~25 deg) I default to crampons instead of trying to skin for as long as possible.

If boot pen is greater 10cm I start to reconsider.

Thanks for the input, Scott and Terry.  There is obviously no hard line; I’m expecting borderline conditions (not super steep but likely very hard) and have been debating which tool(s) to bring. Ski crampons have a narrow window of effectiveness and efficiency imo, but they are significantly lighter.  I know some folks who prefer to skip the ski crampons all together, and go straight to booting when skins won’t hold.  But reading between the lines, it sounds like you guys prefer ski-pons and reserve the twelve points for the most technical terrain where nothing else will work (safely).  

WHAM . wrote:

I normally find I'm faster on regular crampons if the snow is consolidated so in moderate terrain or steeper (above ~25 deg) I default to crampons instead of trying to skin for as long as possible.

If boot pen is greater 10cm I start to reconsider.

So WHAM is +1 for bypassing ski-pons and going straight to booting.  I figured there would be knowledgeable people on both sides of the debate (and maybe some jerry snark too).  

Stephen Felker wrote:

Thanks for the input, Scott and Terry.  There is obviously no hard line; I’m expecting borderline conditions (not super steep but likely very hard) and have been debating which tool(s) to bring. Ski crampons have a narrow window of effectiveness and efficiency imo, but they are significantly lighter.  I know some folks who prefer to skip the ski crampons all together, and go straight to booting when skins won’t hold.  But reading between the lines, it sounds like you guys prefer ski-pons and reserve the twelve points for the most technical terrain where nothing else will work (safely).  

Stephen, if I need to boot, unless I’m using Billy Goat plates for deep snow, I prefer to use light “tech crampons”, which have just front points. They work super well, weigh little and take up such minimal space I can easily carry them, even if I end up not needing crampons that day.

https://www.proskiservice.com/products/tech-crampon-250?_pos=1&_sid=a68f561f7&_ss=r

I've seen people using those half-pons and decided they are at best a limited purpose tool.  Why?  Because they're really only good for front pointing.  That works some of the time, but if you're walking up anything big you will benefit from switchbacking or even going straight up using french technique.  I also use one front point and one "frenchie foot" in steeper terrain pretty frequently.  None of those techniques work with the half pons in firm conditions. And the lightest fully auto skimo crampons, like the Petzl Leopard, are so light and packable that the main advantages of the half-pons have been diminished. Fully auto crampons are also easily as fast or faster to install and remove, so there's that as well. 

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

I've seen people using those half-pons and decided they are at best a limited purpose tool.  Why?  Because they're really only good for front pointing.  

Totally agree. I would not use tech crampons for anything where you need to do more than front point. It’s not a full on crampon. No heel.

We are talking ski touring, not ice climbing :-)

edit - I deleted the YouTube link as I personally would not climb low angle water ice with them. Only snow.

Petzl Leopard is aluminum, 384g/pair, full crampon.

Tech Crampon 250 is steel, 250g/pair, front points only.

Yeah, but. . . you rarely need steel crampons for skimo. Personally, I'm comfortable using aluminum pons in any scenario where I'm using a single tool, which for me corresponds to all of my skimo trips.  And the fully auto Leopards are so quick off and on, I can pull them if I have to travel across rock or dirt, without much hassle.  You probably wouldn't be keeping the half-pons on in those situations either. Leopards are only $50 more than the half-pons and they work really well.  

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

…I'm comfortable using aluminum pons in any scenario where I'm using a single tool, which for me corresponds to all of my skimo trips..,

Good input!  I appreciate y’all running this out a bit further!  

Half-crampons and ski crampons can both shave grams when you are relatively certain that nothing more is needed, but both have small sweet spots and some major limitations.  Full steel crampons are capable of anything, up or down, but they are heavy and overkill for many ascents, especially without the addition of technical tools.  

Here, I’m planning an onsight tour into relatively familiar terrain with unkown surface conditions-  I may go ahead and pickup some aluminum ‘pons and call it good.  They will save weight over cro-moly and should pair well with my single reverse-curve piolet, providing a comfortable margin with minimal weight premium.

Stephen Felker wrote:

Thanks for the input, Scott and Terry.  There is obviously no hard line; I’m expecting borderline conditions (not super steep but likely very hard) and have been debating which tool(s) to bring. Ski crampons have a narrow window of effectiveness and efficiency imo, but they are significantly lighter.  I know some folks who prefer to skip the ski crampons all together, and go straight to booting when skins won’t hold.  But reading between the lines, it sounds like you guys prefer ski-pons and reserve the twelve points for the most technical terrain where nothing else will work (safely).  

It seems as though you're trying to turn this into an either/or decision when it's not. They are different tools for different terrain and conditions. Ski crampons generally have a narrower window of usability than boot crampons, but when you need them they are the tool for the job and anything else won't be anywhere near as efficient. 

Be careful where your advice is coming from on this subject as different areas will have different windows for their tools. In the Wasatch, we use ski crampons far less than other areas. Lower elevation mountains, and general lack of overnight refreezing in the spring-summer months make the use set for ski crampons much smaller. Often we can kick through the crust while skinning until the terrain is sufficiently steep for booting. If you're taking advice from someone in the Wasatch it's not going to play out the same if you are in the high/colder elevations of Colorado or the icier snowpacks of the PNW. 

My best suggestion would be to carry both. Ski crampons weigh like 3oz (some even less depending on the binding and ski crampon compatibility) but can save the day. They can also be insufficient and if you need boot crampons and don't have them you're probably heading home or taking chances you shouldn't. 

..trying not to be binary or dogmatic.  This is a niche subject worth discussing, for posterity if nothing else.  I splurged on some Al pons today- Here is some raw data to throw in the mix:

Aluminum 12- point crampons (strap-on) plus ski crampons: 720g

(Strap-on crampons are not AT specific or the lightest product out there, but they are versatile and will strap to prettymuch anything.)

NateC… both it is!

I should clarify.. I carry just my ski crampons most of the winter in the Wasatch. I carry both (and a short, but traditional straight ice axe) most of the spring. I find carryingthe ski crampons all year doesn't cost me much weight.. but when you need them, they're way nice to have!