Anyone into Sewing?

Bar tacks look better than mine thats for sure!!! What machine are you using?

Max R wrote:

Bar tacks look better than mine thats for sure!!! What machine are you using?

Those look like they do their job though, not bad at all really.  Love the googly eyes too haha.  

I’m just using a 25 year old Singer Merritt 4525 threaded a bit oddly so that it’ll work with V69 thread.   Finally switching up to a size 18 needle for the V69 nylon thread made a big difference in bar tack quality, but the best trick I figured out is to take a small sewn piece of double thick webbing and put it just behind my work piece whenever I start a bar tack so I can start at the very edge and the machine’s foot doesn’t sit at an angle and keep the webbing from moving smoothly right away.  

Max R wrote:

Bar tacks look better than mine thats for sure!!! What machine are you using?

Say, you guys are making me nervous now... one, those ain’t bartacks.  Two, that hook is slung wrong.  

So if you are really going to make stuff that your life depends on, rather than just chalk bags and chorizo slings, at least let me test it for you.  Email me for an address to send your testables and I’ll pull test them for you, no charge.  At least then you will have an idea of how much life insurance to take out. Not kidding, free testing.  Hit me up.

Russ Walling wrote:

Say, you guys are making me nervous now... one, those ain’t bartacks.  Two, that hook is slung wrong.  

So if you are really going to make stuff that your life depends on, rather than just chalk bags and chorizo slings, at least let me test it for you.  Email me for an address to send your testables and I’ll pull test them for you, no charge.  At least then you will have an idea of how much life insurance to take out. Not kidding, free testing.  Hit me up.

I’m only sewing aid gear right now that isn’t the thing keeping me off the deck... And I was actually planning on doing some not super scientific pull testing here next week with a bunch of different pieces sewn with varying amounts of bar tacks.  But I would love to send you some to pull test, I’ll shoot you an email, thanks!

Edit: I am curious though what I’m missing that makes these not bar tacks?  I’m doing 3 layers of zig zag, for each one which ends up being just shy of 100 stitches per tack in 1” webbing.  And the thread that I’m using has a tensile strength of 11lbs.  I suppose I could very easily be overstitching and weakening the webbing itself at each tack... Obviously I’m not using a nitrogen cooled needle, or a $6000 machine, but I’m confident these pieces will hold my body weight, and I’m definitely not expecting these to be anywhere close to life rated.  

^^^
Russ happens to know whats up

l wanna know what a chorizo sling is.  I like chorizo alot...  Also curious his results on homemade gear strength

Stiles wrote:

^^^
Russ happens to know whats up

l wanna know what a chorizo sling is.  I like chorizo alot...  Also curious his results on homemade gear strength

Chorizo sling is like a banana hammock... something Borat might wear.

Jacob Butler wrote:

I’m only sewing aid gear right now that isn’t the thing keeping me off the deck... And I was actually planning on doing some not super scientific pull testing here next week with a bunch of different pieces sewn with varying amounts of bar tacks.  But I would love to send you some to pull test, I’ll shoot you an email, thanks!

Edit: I am curious though what is it that makes these not bar tacks?  I’m doing 3 layers of zig zag, for each one which ends up being just shy of 100 stitches per tack in 1” webbing.  And the thread that I’m using has a tensile strength of 11lbs.  I suppose I could very easily be overstitching and weakening the webbing itself at each tack... Obviously I’m not using a nitrogen cooled needle, or a $6000 machine, but I’m extremely confident these pieces will hold my body weight, and I’m definitely not expecting these to be anywhere close to life rated.  

A bar tack is a fairly specific stitch pattern, made by a machine programmed to do that pattern. Lot’s of stuff might look like a bar tack but the pattern and the tension is what makes them strong and repeatable with predictable results,  as for bodyweight and safety and all that...  many times if a hook sling failed on me I’d be dead.  Same for a daisy chain pocket.  Things can turn life dependent quickly out there.  I’d hate to have anything that was not up to this task should the situation arise.  Goofy shit happens.  Stack the odds in your favor by eliminating failure modes when you can.

Russ Walling wrote:

Goofy shit happens.  Stack the odds in your favor by eliminating failure modes when you can.

Simple, concise, and eloquent.

Those Daisy Chains will behave like a giant screamer in the way they are constructed. All the force will come on one edge of one bar tack at a time.

Julian H wrote:

I'll send you a couple of things to test. 

As for the other guys zig zag is not the only one or the strongest bartack.  Just use a box type bartack like camp uses on tri cams. Easier to sew and stronger. 

Box X tacks are not the strongest for that use either, if the force is always in one direction of pull.  If you used box X tacks on that version of daisy chain construction you would have all force coming on just 1 line of stitching. maybe just holding body weight depending on thread and stitch length. I imagine the reason Camp uses a box X is because that is the machine they have. Previous iterations used lines of stitching parallel to the force vectors of a fall and would be strongest for the total number of stitches. If you overbuild the stitching you can get by with all kinds of stitch patterns as long as you keep force vectors in mind. Box X is more traditionally used for things like cargo netting where forces will be acting on the item in multiple directions.

Link to how to sew a box X and calc strength.

Here is a more efficient stitch pattern with the lines of stitching running parallel to the force. Think of the stitch pattern like when you think of setting up a belay anchor and the increase in forces go up on the protection pieces as the angle between them and the master point  increases.

Jacob Butler wrote:

Working on a set of 72” daisies, first one done and I’m decently happy with it. My bar tacks are getting more consistently 8/9 out of 10, but there still tends to be one or two on everything I make that look a bit uneven.  

Here is the scary part of how those are put together. Shear vs Peel.

Here is some good stuff for you daisy guys to look at:

http://fishproducts.com/tech/daisy_death/daisy_death.html

Russ Walling wrote:

A bar tack is a fairly specific stitch pattern, made by a machine programmed to do that pattern. Lot’s of stuff might look like a bar tack but the pattern and the tension is what makes them strong and repeatable with predictable results,

A bar tack is just a straight stitch that is zig zagged over - not that fancy or specific. Specialized machines just add speed and consistency. You can make one just as strong on a home sewing machine if you know what you’re doing. 

Lots of really helpful info, thanks for sharing!  Guess I was a bit too gung ho about this, you’ve successfully scared me away from having any interest in using the one daisy I’d made already, I think I’ll just send it to get pull tested and depending on the strength of my sewing from it, and my other pull test samples, I might  make a different style of daisy that isn’t a death zipper waiting to happen...  We’ll see.  Appreciate that you guys care enough to educate me on the topic, my knowledge base is definitely limited so I’m more than happy to listen to critiques and advice.  I’m excited to see the results of the pull testing, but it’s starting to sound like afterwards I’ll be sticking to sewing less important pieces that won’t get me killed.  Hah 

t.farrell wrote:

A bar tack is just a straight stitch that is zig zagged over - not that fancy or specific. Specialized machines just add speed and consistency. You can make one just as strong on a home sewing machine if you know what you’re doing. 

Actually, it's not, and no you can't.

Idk man, i feel like 4 shitty bartacks equals atleast 1 good one right??

The strongest is straight stitching and filling in a cross the whole width. Just like the “Crane sling” pictured above. Look at ratings for crane slings, when tested they get material failures NOT stitching failures.

When I used to sew and sell lots of gear. I would use a hydraulic pull tester. And I would make samples and have a friend at Ball Aerospace pull test in his spare time. I tried many different stitching patterns.

Bartacks are the accepted standard and that’s what everyone is used to. If you pull to failure you will pop the stitching. Most bartacks pop around 600-700 lbs.   Yates does all kind of special shock absorbing slings with all different variations of pull strengths. They have been doing it for a long time and have government contracts  I believe McDonald Douglas used to do some of their 

When I had my own line of slings. I did not own a Bartacker. So I had checked with various manufacturers and ended up having Forrest Safety in Durango make my web gear. At the time they also did: Trango, CCH, and Ushba.  I also had Pika do some prototypes for me back in the day.
I really enjoyed when the industry was laid back, small anti corporate and people tended to discuss and share thoughts and ideas. I recall meeting Russ at my first trade show in Reno in summer 1991. Later when show moved to Salt Lake. The pika parties were an awesome time. I hauled many a keg of Fat Tire to Utah! I remember going into JRAT in Boulder to by webbing and buckles to make harnesses and gear slings and they used to have a handout on making your own gear and material choices. I bought my first sewing machine from Paul Piana when he lived near me and he and his wife were starting “Jesters “ making Lycra tights (when that was the rage)

People like Russ are in business, definitely not a mega rich businessman. But he is willing to share his knowledge, offering up advice and wants to do whatever to keep it safe first above profits. You probably won’t see PETZL offering to pull test your stuff for free! You could spend a few hundred dollars on a digital load cell and do your own. I still have a Dillon dynamometer and older load cell that needs a DMM for the read out. One of my fellow SAR geeks bought 2 new digital load cells.

Go break shit in a controlled environment and you will learn a lot about the equipment and the materials. Some industry standards aren’t the best they are acceptable and there for ease and profit. 

Be patient Russ. They know knot what they do....

jcs

Bar Tacks are used where stitching space is at a premium. Look at the belt loops on your pants. On a sling or a cam it can make for a more flexible and compact joint.

I have used a hydraulic jack and also a 4 ft DBH tree with a log chain and pickup with tow hooks to experiment. The jack was pretty static while the truck was dynamic. You have to pad all edges.

One thing I found was that too many stitches at the edge of the tack weakened the web and that was the failure point. As few as 40 stitches would do it.  If you are putting 100 stitches in a single spot, that very likely will be the weak spot in your gear. 

Nylon thread is stretchy and in my experiments proved stronger for the size than polyester. I assume because the weight was spread out more over the tacks. Like dynamic and static ropes.

One sample of Spectra thread held 5 times the weight of the same size Nylon. One sample of Dyneema (supposedly the same material) held only twice the weight. Go figure. That's why testing is so important.

Since more force is applied to the outer stitching, one could potentially make a tack on one end of weaker thread or stitch pattern that would pop under a lower load as an indicator of high force having been applied to the gear. Don't know if this would be useful for climbing, but maybe a sign to retire something if those stitches blow.

I made these roll top totes a couple of weeks ago to hold clamps and grip heads for my camera lighting equipment.  I also fill them full of rocks and use them as weights for holding down light stands. 

I wish I had more time and room to sew!