Poudre Canyon Fire eye witness info

Travis Bieber wrote:

Was just in the canyon yesterday up to the Narrows area, and this is almost not evidence of burned forrest.

The Cameron Peak Fire did not burn that area at all. Drive past Rustic to see the damage.

John Byrnes wrote:

Earlier this week I called the Forest Service about the fire closures in the Poudre.  If you don't know already, they've closed everything within the fire's perimeter, and even some places OUTSIDE of it. I was told there's fire break mitigation going on in many places (they try to erase bull-dozed fire lines), there are still hot spots, and it's still dangerous with Lions and Tigers and Bears! Imagine coming upon a tree fallen across the trail! Oh my, what would you do?

So I drove up to Cameron Pass yesterday. I was checking out the ski areas and the climbing areas.

Yes, a lot of areas have burned but a lot of areas within the "perimeter" have not. As you may have expected, there was a lot of mosaic-ing which is usual with natural fires.  In general, up and down the canyon, most areas in the bottom of the canyon did not burn.  The firefighters did a good job.  Rustic, Spencer Heights, Poudre City, etc. are fine. Most of the houses were saved, with the notable exception of two houses (one on stilts) below Boston Peak. 

The bottom line is that all the parking lots have been plowed but all have huge "closed to all uses" signs. There are NO firefighters or workers in the canyon except for one crew of phone/power guys restoring the poles and lines. I saw one spot, where some heavy equipment was parked, but it was well down the canyon below Poudre Falls.  There are no hot spots.

The Poudre Falls, Jungle, Astronomy and Boston Peak climbing areas were NOT burned.   There's a small area along the trail (100 yds?) that you'd need to hike through to get to the Poudre Falls crags.   The approach to Jungle and Astronomy look unburned.  There is a burned area below Boston Peak that you'd need to hike through but you can see green trees all around Boston Peak.   The 420 Boulders area did burn (mostly grass), but I saw three cars parked there (no orange tape or signs) and people illegally bouldering which is traditional there ;-)

So the Forest Service is pulling the same bullshit again as they did after the High Park Fire in 2013.  If you remember, they closed the Triple Tier area, Crystal Wall and the Palace for over a year even though NOTHING burned; not the parking lots, not the trails, not the crag areas.   I'm going to find the correct person to contact in order to protest, and I'll post that information here when I get it. I'm really fucking tired of government agencies treating me like I'm stupid and incompetent, and trying to protect me from non-existent dangers.  And the lying.  Really fucking tired of the lying.

Based on what I have heard the Larimer County Sheriff and others say about the closures, it might be more fruitful to begin your calls with "I hunt, fish, hike with my Goldens, hike to overcome Covid fatigue, etc." 

These public land users seem to get the bulk of the attention when it comes to opening pressure.

Just a thought.

And, as I read the closure maps, plenty of open Poudre Canyon climbing opportunities up to the Kelly Flats area?

At least Greyrock is open, and the Palace/Crystal/Sheep areas all seem normal.  I have not been to the sport areas recently, only driven by, but was at Greyrock yesterday.  At one point even that had a sign in the lot stating it was closed, but it seems that things have opened again up to Rustic or so, so I would agree there is plenty of climbing in the lower canyon.

I might just be happy that the easy multipitch trad place is open though, since that's my favorite!

Red John wrote:

Based on what I have heard the Larimer County Sheriff and others say about the closures, it might be more fruitful to begin your calls with "I hunt, fish, hike with my Goldens, hike to overcome Covid fatigue, etc." 

These public land users seem to get the bulk of the attention when it comes to opening pressure.

Just a thought.

Not a bad idea, and I did mentioned Covid fatigue, but it didn't seem to matter to them.  What I really want is for them to open the forest for skiing.  Climbing in the upper canyon can wait for now.

And, as I read the closure maps, plenty of open Poudre Canyon climbing opportunities up to the Kelly Flats area?

That's right.

Jon W wrote:

How about the falls area like south wall and white wave wall. Those have some decent routes. You said that the burn was not complete there? Such a shame this happened. It's one of my favorite places in CO to be. Lots of wild life.

I don't know about every crag.   There was only one area where we stopped and did a little hiking to see more than we could from the road.  Officially the entire Forest is closed, and there was at least one state trooper in the canyon.   So I'd just pull over, stay close to the car, and saw what I could see from there.

Closure was updated a few days ago 

https://www.facebook.com/usfsarp/posts/1923180567824878

In place until January 4th and re-evaluated at that time.  

Here's the link for Congressman Neguse's Help with a Federal Agency page. Feel free to personalize my letter, cut and past and send it. Have everyone you know send one!

https://neguse.house.gov/services/help-federal-agency

Dear Congressman Neguse,

I am writing because I, and many of my friends, need your help with the National Forest Service in the wake of the Cameron Peak Fire. We want to go backcountry skiing/boarding/snowshoeing near Cameron Pass but the NFS has closed everything, even areas that did not burn. A topo map of the area in question can be seen in the link below, including the fire boundary from satellite data outlined in yellow. The FS has closed everything on both sides of the Colo Hwy 14 all the way to the Larimer County boundary.

https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=40.53621,-105.87799&z=14&b=f16a&o=r2&n=0.35&a=modis_mp

A little over a week ago, I called the Ft. Collins Forest Service office and spoke with a FS person. When I asked why the areas were closed, even when they didn't burn, she told me there were fire crews mitigating the fire breaks (bulldozer lines). I drove up there two days later and there wasn't any work going on. With two feet of snow on the ground, it would be impossible in any case.

She also said "fallen trees on the trail" was a major reason for the closures but that's specious. We all know the Forest Service is underfunded and understaffed. That's why, for the last decade or more, the FS has relied on volunteers, such as the Poudre Wilderness Volunteers and Cameron Pass Nordic Rangers, to clear fallen trees from the trails. (And I personally have cut a half-dozen trees off the trails with a small handsaw.) So if fallen trees are a problem, why won't the FS let those volunteer organizations into the area?

Additionally, fallen trees from beetle-kill are everywhere in the last 20 years. We ski around them, and when the snow gets deep (there's 2-4 feet on the ground right now), we just ski over them. It doesn't matter if they are burned or not.

Everytime I go into National Forest Service lands to recreate, I do so at my own risk. So why is now any different? The FS isn't responsible for protecting me from avalanches, frostbite, hitting a rock or tree while skiing, animals, or any other hazard. The only justifiable reason for closing the area is to protect the resource, but with total snow cover, what exactly could we damage?

The Forest Service closure is supposed to expire Dec 15, but we believe they will extend it. Why? Because of the precedence of the High Park Fire in 2013, when they closed many popular areas for over a year, even though those areas did not burn! We appealed to the FS then too, and were ignored.

Due to the Pandemic this year has been full of stress and frustrations. With all the restrictions at regular ski areas, RMNP, etc. we really need a place to get outside and have some fun.

So I ask you to intercede. If the FS is worried about fallen trees on the trail, let the volunteers in there to clear them. They are eager to do the work! Specifically, the areas we'd like to see opened are:

1) Cameron Pass parking lot areas, which did not burn. (North & South Diamond Peaks, Ptarmigan peak, etc)
2) The Zimmerman Lake area (east side) did not burn.
3) Most importantly to us, is the Montgomery Pass Trail. From the satellite data, a short section of the trail burned but almost none of the areas we ski in did (many are above treeline). Let the volunteers clear the trail and open the area for recreation. It's extremely popular, and we will be sure to let all those skiers, snowboarders and snow shoers who it is they can thank for getting it open.

Thank you for your consideration,

John Byrnes, et al
Fort Collins

The Dec 4th update to the closure opened up a very small area that burned near Shambhala. There is a lot that is still closed and that closure area to skiing, snowmobiling, and snowshoeing sucks. But maybe it will start to ease? 

How about the falls area like south wall and white wave wall. Those have some decent routes. You said that the burn was not complete there? Such a shame this happened. It's one of my favorite places in CO to be. Lots of wild life.

I talked to another person who went up the canyon and said those walls were actually in good condition. It was a couple weeks ago now, but there was one wall at poudre falls that had some soot on it from the fire. Depending on weather I was going to drive up and take some photos next weekend. I have a spotting scope so I can actually see some stuff up close without having to hike around.

John Lombardi wrote:

The Dec 4th update to the closure opened up a very small area that burned near Shambhala. There is a lot that is still closed and that closure area to skiing, snowmobiling, and snowshoeing sucks. But maybe it will start to ease? 

Here is the actual document:

Closure Order and Map

Definitely some burned trees by Hall of Fame on b peak, but the rock is most likely totally fine.

I am not sure if anyone knows definitively - but I think the 420s are open to bouldering. I talked to a couple people who said they have gone up there and haven't gotten a ticket. That doesn't mean it's open - but it is within the state wildlife area. I can't find if that wildlife area is closed or not. Some state wildlife areas are closed up in red feather but at this point I think they are closed due to winter. 

The boston peak crags and vista crag are right outside of the state wildlife boundary:

John Lombardi wrote:

I am not sure if anyone knows definitively - but I think the 420s are open to bouldering. I talked to a couple people who said they have gone up there and haven't gotten a ticket. That doesn't mean it's open - but it is within the state wildlife area. I can't find if that wildlife area is closed or not. Some state wildlife areas are closed up in red feather but at this point I think they are closed due to winter. 

The boston peak crags and vista crag are right outside of the state wildlife boundary:

420s are definitely open. My friend talked to CPW and they confirmed. I've seen the rangers just drive by and wave when I'm parked there.  No one is going to bother you at boston or vista, you'll be parked on CPW land.

Please pass this on to interested skiers, boarders, snow shoe-ers, hikers and climbers.

I have had two long conversations with the Forest Service. The bottom line is that the closures are classic bureaucratic bullshit. I heard not one valid reason for the continued closures around the Cameron Pass and Zimmerman Lake parking lots.

At first, they said there were fire crews working up there mitigating the fire lines (dozer lines) but that's nonsense. There's been 2 feet or more of snow on the ground since before Thanksgiving. No work of that type can be done until it melts next summer. I drove up there and there was no equipment or crews anywhere above the Fish Hatchery, in fact I saw no fire crews at all.

Then the reason was "hazard trees" and if someone were standing at a kiosk and a tree fell on them, the FS would be liable. Well, that's unadulterated bullshit. Nothing around the Cameron Pass or the Zimmerman Lake parking lots burned. There's no difference from previous decades and the only kiosks are the ones at the parking lots.

I pointed out that trees fall across the trail all the time. Beetle-kill trees are common and they fall with every wind event. Duh.

For no valid reason, the FS is protecting us from ourselves, "We don't want anyone to get hurt." Well, gee, people get hurt all the time in the National Forests: avalanches, lightning, animal attacks, hitting a tree, twisting an ankle, etc. Every time anyone steps into the National Forest, they do so at their own risk. Let us make our own decisions! And in case you didn't notice, Mr. Forest Service, with the exception of ~150 yds of the Montgomery Pass Trail, the areas in question DID NOT BURN.

The outlook is mixed. Mr. Forest Service said that they *might* get volunteers into these areas this weekend (Dec 19/20) and that they *might* open these areas by next weekend "at the earliest", which means there's no guarantees and my guess it's 50/50 they will actually open.

The bad news is that Blue/Chambers Lake and everything below it is expected to be closed for 1.5 years. That would include the climbing areas around Poudre Falls. This is like the closure of the Palace, Crystal Wall and Triple Tier climbing areas after the High Park Fire, even though they didn't burn. That's right, neither the parking lot, the approach trails or the climbing areas burned, yet they were closed for 1.5 years. Total BULLSHIT.

My advice is to complain to your Congressmen, Senators and directly to the Forest Service starting NOW.

JJ Keller wrote:

Aw boohoo!  

If you really think your complaining is gonna make any difference then you clearly don’t understand the bureaucracy you’re complaining about.  And you obviously don’t understand what kind of morons are out there that the FS needs to protect THEMSELF from.

It’s not the fallen trees on the trail that is the hazard.  It’s trees FALLING after the recent fire.  Burned areas need time for things to stabilize a bit, and the FS certainly doesn’t have the resources to reduce the closure to the absolute minimum areas where you see burned trees.  

Why don’t you just go visit areas within the closure anyway?  A little civil disobedience might go a long way if you’re actually ticketed, which I doubt would actually happen.  You could whine about this to a judge and possibly even have an impact on way the FS implements closures.  I doubt you would ever do that though because I’m guessing you feel safer just whining on the internet. \

It sounds to me like John has been contacting the Forest Service. So he has taken more action that just "whining on the Internet." He has also stated that he understands it's the falling trees, not the fallen trees, that are the issue, 

Also, trying to get many people to complain to a government agency can help, when just one complaint won't convince an agency to listen.

I feel like your comments are uninformed pot shots against John and your assessment shows poor reading comprehension. Thank you.

JJ Keller wrote:

Maybe you should go back and read the thread again.

John says that the explanation of falling trees is ‘unadulterated bullshit’.  

It was, just as I said.  

I was up there, with permission, and skied the trail last week.  You know, first-hand eye-witness information and doing the leg-work?  In contrast to sitting on your ass and lamely criticizing people who are actually doing something to benefit everyone?

He also  posted a letter to a congressman whining about “really needing a place to get out and have some fun”.  And then continues with advice for everyone to go complain.  

And so you're suggesting we just allow our "civil servants" to not serve us?  You have some other, more effective way of influencing policy than contacting your elected representatives?  Or are you suggesting that we should just roll-over and let ignorance and bad policy stand unchallenged?   Or perhaps you're just not interested in having some fun.

I’d suggest the whiny babies schedule a phone call or send an email to the person who signed the closure order.  

Great advice.     I spent a half-hour on the phone last week with one of the guys who made the decision.  And before speaking with him, I spent over an hour on the phone with another NFS person getting the background information and rationales, so I wouldn't be making lazy, ignorant and condescending assumptions, like you are, JJ.

In this case, it’s the Forest Supervisor.  I’m sure they would love to hear how closing an area for hazard trees is unadulterated bullshit.

He did hear it, although I admit that I didn't paraphrase it so bluntly.   I found out that no one from the Forest Service had been up the trail, or apparently that far up the road(!), since the fire was out. So they are  making decisions with zero information which is, to be blunt, pretty much the definition of "bullshit decision".  If I had the power, I'd triple their funding and staffing so that they could send people into the field.   

My main criticism is that they didn't allow the volunteers in there sooner.  The fire's been out at that elevation for two months.  There's 2.5 feet of snow on the ground at the parking lot and 4+' at treeline.  There's been multiple wind events, so any tree that was on the brink of falling, probably has fallen.  And the ones that have fallen are buried under several feet of snow.

And just BTW, guess how many burned "hazard" trees had fallen, or were in a position to fall, across the trail?  NONE.  Not a single one.   The fire had intersected the trail for only about 50 yds in an area that was naturally sparsely treed.  

So JJ, I think you know what to do with your opinion.

John, the forest service has closed a road down in the Wet Mountains for over five years now, cutting off access to several really nice crags. They even opened the Waldo Canyon area five years after that fire. The fact is, once they do a closure, there is no pressure to reopen. So you are right I think to light a fire under them, otherwise they will just lazily close the entire burn area for multiple years.

So we are all merely someone who “really needs a place to get out and have some fun” and therefore, unimportant? I mean, it's just fun we are talking about, right?

You're right, JJ, we should all just leave the experts alone.

JJ Keller wrote:

All I am suggesting is that your approach shows little understanding of how the FS bureaucracy works.  I never suggested you roll-over and take it, but crying about it on MtnProj isn’t going to do anything.

I will continue to assume you didn’t speak to the Forest Supervisor, who actually has authority to modify or extend the closure.  So again, complaining to a ‘NFS person’ will seriously have no impact.  If anything, you’ll annoy them into extending the closure.  You need to speak to a district ranger or forest supervisor, or don’t waste your time.

This, exactly.  The FS is underfunded and your complaint will go nowhere unless you actually engage those with authority to do something.  Otherwise you are just another member of the public complaining about recreation opportunities that are incredibly low on the list of priorities.  Keep in mind you are in the same line as logging companies vying for timber sales and other entities that actually bring the FS revenue and not just liability.

JJ, you just spew criticism and bullshit without any information to back it up, and say we shouldn't try to do anything because nothing will happen.  You're just a wonderful asset to our community, eh?

Judging by your confidence that the area is totally free of hazards related to the fire, you clearly must be some sort of forestry expert.  

Here's an perfect example your bullshit rhetoric ^^^^^.    I was standing next to the ranger who was doing the trail assessment and he said the trail should be opened immediately.   

Where were you at the time?  At home typing bullshit into your keyboard?  Yeah, I thought so.

@ JJ and John - have you guys ever thought about taking this offline either with PM or a phone call? Sounds like you might actually be able to agree on more than not and coordinate your efforts to achieve what you want instead of engaging in a dual on the interwebs. Just a thought. Feels like there is already enough drama and discontent to fill up everyone's cup - maybe nice to take a pause. 

JJ Keller wrote:

For the last time, you should try to speak to the District Ranger .....

And more and more bullshit.   Take a look at this.  See the inset box?   That's been open for over a week.  I did that, not alone but with help from dozens of supporters.

What did you do?  Nothing but sit on your ass and spew defeatist bullshit.    

And just BTW, the next campaign in the Spring will be to get the Poudre Falls and Boston Peak climbing areas assessed ASAP so they, too, can be opened.  Of course, we all expect you, JJ, to sit on your ass and criticize our efforts.