Onsite Vs Flash: A chalked up debate

Was discussing the silliness of Onsite, Flash, Red Point, Pink Point, and Blue Point...  Can one claim an Onsight if the route is covered in chalk?  

For example, Bird of Fire's (in Jtree) holds is covered in chalk making hold finding more obvious and easier.
 

I think at this point people agree that these names hold little value, and as long as you're clear about exactly what you did and how you did it, that's all that matters

Alright boys, circle up.

even looking at a route is beta. you must gouge out your eyes for the only true onsite...

For the sake of this thread though, here are my assumptions when I hear each of those words, but keep in mind these are not rigid:

Onsight: Climb a route first try with no beta from a human, this means no beta spray or watching someone else climb, but chalk marks or viewing (from the ground) are okay. This makes it possible for people to actually get onsights, as everyone will assume there's chalk on the holds.

Flash: first try with as much beta as you want in any form. For boulders I think you're allowed to touch holds too.

Redpoint: Send a route while placing gear. On sport routes I don't think there's really any reason to distinguish between red and pink though, I feel like the focus of sport is purely on the climbing and not the protection.

Pinkpoint: once again I feel like this only applies to trad climbing, sending a route with pre-placed gear.

But yeah the important part is that stuff like chalk and marks that were already there when you first saw it don't detract from the onsight. In this day and age everyone assumes there will be chalk on the route, so even if it isn't as "pure" as it used to be, your point gets across and people understand. Language is fluid afterall, and as long as people understand what you mean that's all that matters.

What is it called again when gumbies come toprope it before you and put chalk on all the worst holds and so its harder, can my onsite count for extra points then? Id love if mountain project could add that as a tick option

Gumby King wrote:

Can one claim an Onsight if the route is covered in chalk?  

I always think about the mega-classic 5 Gallon Buckets at Smith. There's so much chalk on that thing, but not every chalked hold is worthy of using on the climb. 

It's been chalk-bukake'd so much that you can be misled plenty of ways and blow an onsight. 

J P wrote:

I always think about the mega-classic 5 Gallon Buckets at Smith. There's so much chalk on that thing, but not every chalked hold is worthy of using on the climb. 

It's been chalk-bukake'd so much that you can be misled plenty of ways and blow an onsight. 

Plenty of routes at the red are like this. 

Is my onsight now ruined because someone left tick marks? 

For the sake of discussion/banter splitting hairs can be fun. But onsight is first try, no hangs/falls, no beta. But it's understood you looked at the thing from the ground when you walked up. Any nuance outside of this feels like campfire fodder. 

I've definitely climbed a pitch that had a profoundly chalked-up hold, to discover it's nothing but a red-herring. Some chalk doesn't "ruin" the onsight... 

J P wrote:

I always think about the mega-classic 5 Gallon Buckets at Smith. There's so much chalk on that thing, but not every chalked hold is worthy of using on the climb. 

It's been chalk-bukake'd so much that you can be misled plenty of ways and blow an onsight. 

I offer my sincerest thanks to you for adding "chalk-bukkake" to the MP lexicon.

Story Time!

I met a kid in Ibex in the late 90s or early 2000s when the place when the only done BPs were on the red monster. He had been living in his pick up for a couple of weeks and driving around the dirt roads and just climbing boulders solo. We gave him all our water and some food so he didn't have to go back to town. I had a hand drawn topo. I offered to give it to him and he declined saying he didn't want to know any information about the place! Came back the next weekend and he was still there. I wonder what he has/had FA'ed... 

Stephen L wrote:

Is my onsight now ruined because someone left tick marks? 

Technically yes. Whether that detracts from your satisfaction/sense of accomplishment for sending said route is entirely up to you.

curt86iroc wrote:

even looking at a route is beta. you must gouge out your eyes for the only true onsite...

During an Onsight you are obviously blindfolded till you start climbing, if you gouge out your eyes it becomes an nonsight!

I just chip my own holds to avoid chalked ones if I'm doing an onsite 

Lone Pine wrote:

Technically yes. Whether that detracts from your satisfaction/sense of accomplishment for sending said route is entirely up to you.

I'm going to completely disagree and say no, it doesn't not disqualify an onsight. I stand by the aforementioned definition of onsight, someone else's ticks be damned. 

However, it certainly does detract from my satisfaction. 

Stephen L wrote:

I'm going to completely disagree and say no, it doesn't not disqualify an onsight. I stand by the aforementioned definition of onsight, someone else's ticks be damned. 

However, it certainly does detract from my satisfaction. 

Cool. When you're cruxing mid-route on you hardest onsight attempt, ready to fall at any moment, and find those clear tick marks on both hand and foot holds, which quickly allow you to figure out the sequence and climb past it, you can pat yourself in the back for onsighting the route, but you'll know well you got some help.

Lone Pine wrote:

Cool. When you're cruxing mid-route on you hardest onsight attempt, ready to fall at any moment, and find those clear tick marks on both hand and foot holds, which quickly allow you to figure out the sequence and climb past it, you can pat yourself in the back for onsighting the route, but you'll know well you got some help.

Biggest eye-roll right here. 

edit: I appreciate you taking the time to dream up some imaginary scenario for me. Oddly specific. You can define onsight however you want. But don't pretend to know whether or not I "get help" on a climb because somebody left a little chalk on it. Tick marks can be completely useless for one person, crucial for another. You're assuming a lot about our imaginary tick mark. I'll say it again: onsight in my book is first try, no hang, no fall, no beta from a person, video or description. 

Lone Pine wrote:

Cool. When you're cruxing mid-route on you hardest onsight attempt, ready to fall at any moment, and find those clear tick marks on both hand and foot holds, which quickly allow you to figure out the sequence and climb past it, you can pat yourself in the back for onsighting the route, but you'll know well you got some help.

Definitely disagree. As others have mentioned, plenty of times there is too many chalked holds on a route that it makes it useless. If I’m on the crux and there are 8 holds right above me and I could grab any one of them, but only one is actually good, how is that any advantage? And just because someone put a bunch of ticks for feet all over the place does not mean I will use them/they will be helpful. Everyone climbs different and has their own style/sequence that they will work out at cruxes. 

Stephen L wrote:

Biggest eye-roll right here. 

edit: I appreciate you taking the time to dream up some imaginary scenario for me. Oddly specific. You can define onsight however you want. But don't pretend to know whether or not I "get help" on a climb because somebody left a little chalk on it. Tick marks can be completely useless for one person, crucial for another. You're assuming a lot about our imaginary tick mark. I'll say it again: onsight in my book is first try, no hang, no fall, no beta from a person, video or description. 

You can call your sends whatever you want. The scenario that I have imagined for you is a scenario that I have experienced a number times myself. It certainly detracts from the idea of claiming an Onsight in my opinion. Climbing P3 of Freeblast last year, I found so many tick marks on the roof traverse that I felt like I was climbing a taped route at the gym. I would have been lying to myself if I thought that those chalk marks didn't help me get through that section more easily.

I'm gonna agree with the "chalk doesn't matter" group. I can imagine a scenario where it helps but, in my experience, it usually doesn't. Maybe this discussion will push people to clean their chalk marks when they are done.

Luke Andraka wrote:

What is it called again when gumbies come toprope it before you and put chalk on all the worst holds and so its harder, can my onsite count for extra points then? Id love if mountain project could add that as a tick option

I like to call this the “nonsight”.